chi and internal energy?

chi and internal energy?

Postby wui223 » Sun Sep 23, 2001 12:21 am

Does anyone know how to use the 'chi'.i mean hit somebody or something.what do you think the purpose of learning tai chi?does push hand helps much or what do you gain from it?
i am new member.so,hope you can answer my question.thanks a lot.
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Postby FFJJones » Mon Sep 24, 2001 12:07 am

Hello Wui,
I was informed that much training goes into something like projecting your chi. However, it is not impossible. There are many secrets that you or myself may not be able to learn until after long years of practice and demonstration. And then a mentor who would be a master, will feel that we may be qualified to have the knowledge imparted to us, will teach you.

I hope you are sucessful in your studies.
Peace,
Jeff
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Postby Bob3 » Tue Sep 25, 2001 10:41 pm

Dear Wui,

Push hands training is of negligable benefit until you know how to move within the Tai Chi form. If you don't know how to relax and let your body move in the appropriate way, the exercise will become a physical match.
Push hands provides a means to guage your energy and to also guage the energy of your partner. This type of practice also helps to refine the timing of body movements, to make the technique more effective. Don't attempt to move to this exercise too soon, unless you can handle personal frustration. The best advice is to find a good master, let him/her know your interest in push hands and then let the master introduce you when you are ready.
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Postby Michael » Thu Sep 27, 2001 1:47 pm

Jeff,

Just a comment about your mention of "projecting your Chi". This summer Yang Jun made a very good statement concerning this. He said that we misunderstand, that we do not send (or project) "chi" out from our bodies but rather "...intent leads the chi and the chi leads the energy." Which is projected into the opponent. He used no other name for this "energy" but he made a very strong distinction between "it" and "chi".

good practice!
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Postby Bob3 » Fri Sep 28, 2001 1:37 am

Michael,

When listening to your teachers, you also need to apply some reasonable thinking. I don't know what Yang Jun was talking about. I do know that it is possible to project chi or energy using intent. I do it all the time. I have also read about real masters who have caused people to tumble a few feet away without any bodily contact, but projecting chi with intent. With sufficient practice, you can either add or subtract chi from another person, usually much easier to do with a person who is less skilled. My teacher learned from an interior student of the Yang family, a couple of generations ago. He is able to easily project chi. Most readily, when he is using a sword, the energy from the sword tip can be felt without touching the sword. In fact it was said that the best masters could win a sword fight without getting their swords bloody. How could they achieve this without projecting energy or chi? While I don't intend to go against what Yang Jun has told you, I am giving you another opinion based on what I have experienced and also been taught.

Practice skillfully!
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Postby Michael » Fri Sep 28, 2001 2:48 am

Bob,

Maybe this is a question for Yang Jun. Yes energy can be moved into an opponent or for healing purposes. Yang Jun only said that there is a mistake in terminology. Look at what I wrote, there is no denial of "chi" or the result of moving it. And what he said gave me MUCH to think about.

My understanding of his words (he did not say this directly) is that the word "chi" is often used for something else as it is very recognizable. He did not deny effects only the word as a description of what actually passed from ones hands or whatever into the opponent.

Most Daoists say that we are born with a limited amount of "Chi" ("life force"), when used up we die. We do not really increase the amount of Chi we have but refine it through Taiji, meditation, or active Chi gung etc.(not enough time nor is this the place to go into all the pre/post birth chi/life force/essence etc. here) This thought is far older than Taiji. So if one is able to project our chi in healing or in combat and does it often in practice we would hasten our deaths would we not? Chinese Dr. would have a fairly short practice. Does it not make sense that the energy we release is the result of moving chi as opposed the chi itself? And though the "chi" is responsible it actually is not the "it" or "product". Still he cautioned me against doing too much Fa jing.

Again I say Yang Jung did not deny the end result of moving chi, only that another "energy" was involved in that end result. This really is only a matter of words in the end. What one calls what really does not matter. His viewpoint I was not able to explore more and do not know where he learned this, from his practice, or a teacher, or a physician, but this view goes along with some fairly ancient teachings and opens up a number of questions that are very interesting with out changing anything you, me, or anybody else believes in or what our bodies experience.

I hope this clears up any misunderstanding.

most respectfully, and excuse the spelling I am pressed for time.

Michael
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Postby JerryKarin » Fri Sep 28, 2001 3:03 am

I think Michael is correct in that the Yangs do not talk about wielding qi but rather are most concerned with intent and jin, which Michael was calling 'energy'. The qi is definitely in there in the mix but they do not advocate any conscious manipulation of it. Not that that would be wrong; it's not the framework they use in their tradition.
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Postby Louis Swaim » Fri Sep 28, 2001 4:07 am

Greetings,

Yes, Michael summarized the idea quite well. The idea that he quoted Yang Jun as saying is a traditional taiji formulation: “yi dao er qi dao, qi dao er jin zi dao”—Where the intention reaches, the qi reaches; where the qi reaches, the jin will follow.” This appears in Yang Chengfu’s “Discussion of Taijiquan Practice.”

Take care,
Louis
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Postby Michael » Fri Sep 28, 2001 3:24 pm

Jerry and all,

Yes I would have used the word "jin" myself only Yang Jun only used the word "energy", so for the sake of transmitting what he actually said I used his words.

It is true about the Yang tradition of not moving Chi with the mind but rather letting intent move it naturally and there is a good reason for doing it that way.

Some would say that using the concentrated mind to do such things as moving chi often just gets in the way of "relaxing" the mind and "loosening" body and keeping you from feeling what is happening on it's own, and keeping you from understanding how and what is happening, the problems (where the blockages are), and the possibilities. This is not the case for ALL people and many meditation exercises and Chi gung use the active mind. BUT often it can produce what WE desire and not the true awareness of the phenomenon. Using the intent to move the chi avoids this, just as not expecting or looking for something will bring the "desired" results.
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Postby Bob3 » Fri Sep 28, 2001 7:02 pm

Michael and all,

Yes, I do agree with you! The intent moves the chi and the jin will follow. This is a typical Tai Chi practice, not just within the Yang family. The mind does produce the intent, which only comes about throught practice and realization of what is needed. The conscious mind has some control of this process, but it happens without direct control. The body needs to stay relaxed (in the Chinese sense) in order to let the Chi flow through the joints. The source of some confusion is when the energy is released from the body, is this jing or chi? From what I have been told, when more intent is present or when the intent is to affect another person, then jing is issued, usually along with a more effective movement. When less intent is used, like in daily practice, it is not really true that jing is issued. Any thoughts about this?

Have effective practice!

Bob
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Postby Audi » Sun Sep 30, 2001 8:05 pm

Hi all,

Interesting comments.

Could anyone also comment on the difference between "sinking qi to the dantian" and "adhering qi to the spine"?

Take care,
Audi
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