Hop

Hop

Postby Gu Rou Chen » Sun Dec 07, 2003 2:57 pm

Here is a link to another push hands demonstration. This one is on the H. WON TAI CHI INSTITUTE webpage. Are there any discussion board members associated with this school?


http://www.nytaichi.com/pushhand.htm

Here is the link previously posted to a push hands demo by one of Li Yaxuan's students.


http://www.scjky.com.cn/My%20Webs/dshw.htm

I think it is instructive to note that in the demo by Li Yaxuan's student the person being pushed does not hop (his feet don't leave the ground), whereas the person being pushed in the nytaichi video is made to jump/hop a high percentage of the time.

(I am not associated with either organization.)
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Postby JerryKarin » Sun Dec 07, 2003 6:36 pm

I seem to remember Xie Bingcan advocating the hop as a way to prevent getting hurt.
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Postby psalchemist » Sun Dec 07, 2003 6:52 pm

Greetings GuRou Chen,

Thank-you for providing that clip of push hands demonstrations above...

WOW...REALLY GREAT!

I have not had the opportunity to witness such Taijiquan demonstrations before.
(Only had a tiny glimpse, once.)

So that is Taijiquan...INCREDIBLE.
So that's a Taijiquan "Push"...Never seen anything close to it....WOW!

It's very motivating to view some of the actual results occurring from years of hard work in practice.

Thanks for the preview. Image

Best regards,
Psalchemist.

[This message has been edited by psalchemist (edited 12-07-2003).]
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Postby Wushuer » Mon Dec 08, 2003 3:44 pm

Psalchemist:
Don't get too excited.
I can't be certain, as I've only had the one quick look through of the video, but it appears that in the nytaichi video the instructor is either pushing with a newbie or against someone who is deliberately allowing him to find his center and push against it repeatedly.
Not that amazing, really. Fun for people to watch, good practice for the instructor, good learning for the student, but nothing that doesn't go on every day at the school I used to attend.
The only difference being that the student would then have been trained on how to counter and then perform these techniques after he'd been bounced around. We would also not have had the catchers, as learning to fall safely after receiving this kind of shot is one of the basic tenants of Wu's T'ai Chi Ch'uan Academy. There would have been mats, but no spotters like that.
What's really amazing is watching two people who are both good at push hands practicing together. Then you'll see some real TCC.
I'm honestly not denigrating the video or the performers, I am merely pointing out that it appears as if the student is almost deliberately lending himself to being thrown around like that. An accomplished opponent would not be bounced around so easily or so quickly. Watching two accomplished push hands artists together can be a very boring event, for the watchers.
As for the bouncing, this is a good example of an application of Zhan against an opponent.
I'll only say this one more thing, than I really must run as I'm pressed for time, look at the instructors weight distribution between his legs and the forward lean he exhibits.........
OK, 'nuff outta me on THAT old score.
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Postby Audi » Thu Dec 11, 2003 2:20 am

Greetings all,

Jeff, thanks for the links. I echo Psalchemist’s thoughts. There was a time I would have killed to see such things.

Wushuer, I think I know where you are coming from with your comments. However, I would be surprised if the demonstration was really meant to show competitive pushing, as opposed to giving a general idea of how techniques look in a reasonably live setting.

Wushuer, I do not understand your reference to leaning and weight distribution. Are you pro or con? I cannot speak for the Yangs, but just about everything I see on the clip is absolutely consistent with what I have been taught. In my opinion, the demonstration looks like it is or like it could be the “Traditional” Yang Style as taught by the Yangs.

Psalchemist, there are a several things that I find very illustrative in the clips that help show some things I have tried to explain in the past. First, I have tried recently to talk about how Taijiquan requires that you work on and with the opponent’s energy. Notice in the clips how the apparent instructor tends to push through the student’s arms. Sometimes he gets a better connection than in other cases and the varying effects are evident from the results of the push.

A good push in the clip results only when the instructor can make the student double weighted. If, for instance, at the moment the push is issued, the student could make his arms go limp (not necessarily a good technique in Taijiquan), all the power would be dissipated into his arms. His arms would fly, but his body would not move much. Some of this is clearer towards the end of the clip, where the student seems to become simultaneously less compliant and slightly more aggressive. These is a much greater variance between good connections and so-so connections through the student’s arms.

Also, notice that although the instructor works on the student’s arms, he is really trying to affect his whole body. The point of the art is not really to deflect the opponent's technique, but to affect his or her entire body.

Especially towards the beginning of the clip, you can see that the instructor tends to root through both legs at the instant he issues. The connection between his legs is visible, and you can see how this connects through his joints into his arms.

Wushuer, if you follow the hyperlink and look for “More Video,” you can see a portion of “fast form”. As far as I know, this is not taught by the Yangs’ in this way; nevertheless, the clip of Repulse Monkey and the subsequent leap illustrate things I have tried to describe in the past. Notice that the practitioner does not issue in Repulse Monkey until both feet have rooted. He even repeats this intent during the back fist that follows the leap. At all times, he tries to keep total control over his movement, or at least the intent of doing so.

Michael, if you also look at the “fast form” clip, especially at the final posture, you can see some of what I was trying to explain about leans. In this posture, the practitioner’s joints have a relative positioning that would take a pull and lead his center of gravity behind his front foot, rather than in front of it. I do not see any tendency for his back foot to become light. If he shortened his stance, these joint dynamics would change; but I am not sure that the theory of the method would change. Again, I accept that there are other theories and other training methods.

You can also see some of how the Jin moves naturally, by looking at how the practitioner reaches the culmination of postures. He does not appear to “stop” or catch himself, but rather the dynamics of how he is using his joints results in a natural stopping point that need not be “planned” or “drilled” into muscle memory. No matter how fast he would go, he would not risk blowing out his knee.

Take care,
Audi
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Postby Michael » Thu Dec 11, 2003 5:39 am

Audi,

I know what you meant. The difference I suppose I have with many is one that concerns "point in time". I am not saying any here have this viewpoint but I have heard it from others, and I will use it to make my point. I see the "ending" point of a forward technique where the body leans forward and the knee reaches the toe as the culmination of "follow through". A good number of people seem to view it as a little past contact with the opponent.

Veiwing the clip you mentioned over and over, I see him making contact with the opponent just as his knee passes the vertical. This is my critical point. Here ones technique is either successful or has been countered. You are either going to follow through or you are going to have to change. At the extended position one would be vulnerable, maybe even the guy in the clip. But to reach that final position one hopefully would have executed a successful technique and a pull would not be a factor. That would come earlier in the chain of events, when one would have an easier time dealing with it.

Now saying that. I do not know that his center would still be behind his front foot in the extended position. Before that certainly. I can lean with no threat of pull with my knee farther back. In his punch down at the beginning, his knee goes about half way. His contact point seems to be sooner, matter of angle and such. Here, lean or not, he is not vulnerable as his center is darn close midway between his feet. Our discussion on the other thread about the Knee position---"lean" and knee are directly tied with how upright or how low you are. They seem to be balancing factors.

Not being that familier with the Wu style I have just figured out how its "lean" and structure work. A note to "Wushuer": Hey Wushuer, take a vacation to Wisconsin, this Wu stuff fascinates me. We could go fishing too!
Audi, you fish?
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Postby Wushuer » Tue Dec 16, 2003 6:31 pm

All:
I have been decidedly ill. I thought, once or twice, about getting up and going online, since I was sitting home with nothing between me and my computer but air and opportunity. However, the fact that I couldn't lift my head off the pillow decided me against such a course.
I lost seven pounds and a weeks worth of practice, but I'm up and moving now.
If you can avoid this flu, I would strongly recommend you do so. I can see clearly now why it's killing people.

Anyway...
I mentioned the instructor in the video and his lean. He leans as in Yang style, not in Wu style. His weight distribution is clearly Yang style. I pointed this out but didn't want to get the "lean or not to lean" thread restarted here so finished as I did. I may be wrong, as you only get one angle on the shot so it's hard to tell, but the way it looks to me he does leave himself open to a good pull from in front or push from the back after he issues.
I was trying to make a funny.
I guess I was sick enough to have found it humorous but not well enough to make that clear.
Sorry.

As for the fast form...
I have learned the Wu fast form, though it's been about nine years since I've tried to do it. Some leaps left in, lots of fajing going on.
Are you talking about the second set of videos in Gu Rou Chen's link, where the older gentleman is sparring with the younger guy in the silks?
This is moving very fast, but it doesn't look like fast form to me. Looks like they are free style sparring to me.
I like the older gentleman in the shirt and tie tossing around the guy in full regalia. I don't know the story behind the link or how they came to meet, but it almost looks like this guy was just walking down the street and decided to show these young guys how to spar, took off his jacket and started tossing them around.
Probably not the way it is at all, but it's what it looks like to me in my present light headed frame of mind.
A very good demo, anyway. The gentelman in the tie is clearly having it all his way.


[This message has been edited by Wushuer (edited 12-16-2003).]
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Postby Wushuer » Tue Dec 16, 2003 6:48 pm

Michael,
If you've figured out how the lean and structure of Wu style work, you don't need me to come teach it to you.
I could use some help with it, though.
Why don't you come on down to Kentucky and show me how it's done? Because after fifteen years studying under Eddie and his disciples I still haven't figured it all out.
We've got fish here too and I'd be happy to show you where some of them are trying to hide.
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Postby Louis Swaim » Tue Dec 16, 2003 7:06 pm

Greetings,

I think there are a couple of different scenarios regarding the hop. One, as Jerry suggests, is a voluntary hop that one does when one knows that an opponent or push hands partner has you at a disadvantage, and you’re about to be launched. It’s a way of maintaining your frame, and quickly re-establishing your equilibrium. The other scenario is an involuntary hop. This can happen once one has been “led into emptiness” by your partner, and there is a sensation of disorientation where you’re not quite sure of your vertical orientation, and it literally feels as though one has fallen or stepped into a hole (which is another way of translating “luo kong”). In this case, even though both feet are on the ground, your legs involuntarily stretch out as you try to "find" the ground, as it were. If the opponent adds just a little lift to your frame at this moment, you’ll propel yourself back in a hop, or series of hops.

Just as it can be a bad habit to hold your ground no matter what, I imagine the defensive hop can develop into an unconscious habit with negative consequences. The hop reminds me a little of what I learned in jujitsu years ago, called “sutemi.” Beginners learn mat rolls, falls and solo flips, working up to airborn versions of the same. Later, you learn that the solo airborne flips you’ve been doing are basically your half of what happens when being thrown by a partner. In practice, partners often “help” each other by doing sutemi while being thrown. As a beginner, I don’t think I was even aware of this phenomenon until the sensei once called me to the mat during a school demonstration to perform a throw on me I hadn’t yet learned. I went up and grabbed his gi as normal, and he looked at me and said quietly, “Don’t sutemi.” My mind kind of went blank, and the next thing I knew, I had hit the mat faster and harder than I ever had before. With this little demo, he made it clear to me that he didn’t need my help for his technique to work.

Take care,
Louis


[This message has been edited by Louis Swaim (edited 12-16-2003).]
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Postby Michael » Wed Dec 17, 2003 2:58 am

Wushuer,

WHere before I had NO understanding, now I have a "bit" of understanding. Clearer? Heck it's enough trying to "understand" Yang style. But Wu I find very interesting.

Yeah I'll come down there and set you staright..HA! BUt I would like to see your set (both) and be on the recieving end of some Wu technique just to get the "idea". Those fish should be scared.
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Postby rvc_ve » Wed Dec 17, 2003 3:58 pm

In my opinion, and I could be wrong of course, and based on the experience I have in pushing hands and taiji sparring, I find this demo to be al little fake. The participants have good flow and everything, but when the push itself is being performed, the guy does little to avoid it. Not only that, he jumps, in a way that his movement is produced by his own legs and not by the pushing jing of the other participant.

Of course, since they are not engaging in a real fight, its not necesarily wrong, if their intention is just to ilustrate what the effects of push hans "could be" like. HOWEVER WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT THIS DISPLAY IS NOT ON ANY WAY A CREDIBLE PUSH HANDS BETWEEN TWO PEOPLE.


Sometimes its hard to diferenciate, and most of the time we get carried away by something that looks good but with little essence.

Just a thought guys! thanK you!
Ray
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Postby rvc_ve » Wed Dec 17, 2003 4:43 pm

And to follow up my las post. I whatched that push hands video again, and I noticed the two guys are actually to far appart from each other to excecute an effectife control on the opponent. If the were to do rela palications, chin na control os body striking, the would have to step, which is fine, unless they are pretending to be engaging in fixed step push hands. If thats is the case they don have the proper distance for the excercise.
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Postby psalchemist » Wed Dec 17, 2003 7:02 pm

Greetings All,

Interesting feedback.

It has been helpful to my understanding and perception of this video.

I am glad however to have had a chance to view a glimpse of such a...demonstration.

And will keep in mind the fact that it is not a true representation of a "Push Hands" competition.

Thanks everyone...

Best regards,
Psalchemist
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Postby Audi » Fri Dec 19, 2003 2:37 am

Greetings all,

Michael, thanks for the comments. By the way, do you or did you have Punch Downward (Zai chui) in your Guangping form? Did you learn a Guangping weapon’s form, and did it have no leans in it?

Wushuer, the Fast Form I referred to in my post was not “where the older gentleman is sparring with the younger guy in the silks.” Click on Jeff’s first hyperlink at the top of this thread. At the top of the resulting page, you will see the title: “Dynamic/Power Pushing Hand” in the top box. In the second box, is the picture of the pushing hand demonstration. Click on the third box, which says only “More Video.” Better yet, maybe you can just click here, if I have done the hyperlink correctly: http://www.nytaichi.com/video.htm. Again, please take note of the weight shifts.

Take care,
Audi

fixed url - Jerry

[This message has been edited by JerryKarin (edited 12-19-2003).]
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Postby psalchemist » Fri Dec 19, 2003 3:01 am

Greetings Audi,

Concerning the video clips...

I noted the Pushing hands between the "older gentleman" in suit and the "younger gentleman" in silks.
And
I noted the short demo of...I don't know what it is , but it is a short solo demonstration including Zai Chuei.

But

When I try to access the "Dynamic pushing hands" demo either through the original link or through your link...I am sent to a search engine...Do you know the www. ?

Thanks,
Best,
Psalchemist.
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