Postby Audi » Fri Dec 19, 2003 1:33 pm

Hi Psalchemist,

The ways of the Internet remain abstruse and mysterious to me, but I think the URL for the pushing hands is as follows: http://www.nytaichi.com/pushhand1.mpg

By the way, for whatever reason, the hyperlink I tried to insert into my previous post does not work for me, so I am glad you could find the Fast Form demo through the original link.

Take care,
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Postby psalchemist » Fri Dec 19, 2003 4:55 pm

Hello Audi,

Thanks for that link...It worked very well.

I can relate to your feelings concerning the ways of the Internet. They are abstruse to me as well...Totally inept and obtuse, I am, concerning that woven web... Image

The clip of the fast form...well...wouldn't I just love to learn that one day!

Is that a Yang style form?
Is that usually included in the Yang style Taijiquan curriculum?
If so, when is it usually introduced?

Thank you,
Best regards,
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Postby Wushuer » Fri Dec 19, 2003 6:38 pm

I do not know about a Yang fast form, though I seem to recall that YZD or YJ said there isn't one.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong on that, but I believe we've covered that before.
I do know the Wu family fast form, it is a 108 long form that doesn't take very long at all. I ran through it last night for the first time in nearly ten years and found it took me about ten minutes, where a traditional long form takes me about twenty five minutes. I was about floored I remembered it all the way through, only unsure on one of the turns very late in the form, I'll need to break out my tape and get that one reburned to memeory. I used to do it twice a day but found it to be not as usefull as the longer, traditional 108 Wu family, fifth generation, form. Or any of the Wu generation forms I learned (2nd through fifth).
Fun, yes. Lots of fajing in it. Feels good. I just don't seem to get as much out of it as I do the slower form in terms of training for applications. Fajing I can do anytime, I don't need a fast form to feel it.
Anyway, the Wu family fast form and what this guy is doing are two entirely different things. While this guy appears to be at least very close to "single weighted" as I know it (let's not start that up again), it still isn't anything like what I'm used to.
This appears to be a small piece of the form. Looks kind of fun, anyway.
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Postby Wushuer » Fri Dec 19, 2003 6:58 pm

Watching the "push hands" clip, with more leisure time to review it now, I have seen a couple of things that I can comment on.
Purely from a more Wu-centric push hands attitude...
The guy getting tossed around appears, to my eye, to be quite stiff. He doesn't seem to have any "song" about him. He's a muscular guy, and they're fun to push with due to their penchant for almost handing you thier center on a silver platter. He is not, obviously, very good at what he's doing. He doesn't seem to have much push hands experience, or is deliberately not doing well for posterity.
The pusher (for lack of a better word) does not seem to be moving his waist or hips very much. Now, the angle is bad for viewing this closely, so I may just not have the right take on it.
And, Yang style push hands doesn't utilize movement from the hips, as I'm used to it anyway. It took me a while to figure this out when I first started pushing Yang style and I have a bad habit of offsetting my Yang style opponents by simply moving from my hip, right out of the way of their pushes. The "movement from the waist" that I was taught for Yang style push hands is a bit foreign to my Wu style brain, though after practicing that way for a while I figured out that using BOTH movement from the waist and movement from the hip together creates what my little group has come to call a "total fade". This even impressed the heck out of my Wu style disciple friends. They liked it enough to have me and my son teach them this method and they are experimenting with it. All feedback has been rather positive up to this time.
However, I don't see much movement from this guys waist, either.
Again, it's not a very good angle to see this, but it doesn't appear, to me, that he is using much waist or hip movement in his pushing.
Of course, against his current opponent it's probably not really necessary to use a whole lot of either. The guy is practically giving himself over to be tossed around.
Sure does impress folks, though.
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Postby psalchemist » Fri Dec 19, 2003 11:50 pm

Greetings Wushuer,

Thanks for your feedback on the "fast form".

Not in Yang style you say?

That WOULD explain why I've never heard of it before...

Is it the same traditional form as always...done more quickly?

Same with minor differences?

Same with major differences?

I find, personally, that I am unable to really speed up the form yet...when I do, I lose the whole threading effect (not that slowing down guarantees that I do thread), but I still need that time to (try to) sink and ground...can't do without it....maybe I'll try that form out in a year or so...

But it does, indeed, look like alot of fun!

About recommending practice to all students on the precipice of 200Ft. cliffs.........

Thank you,
Best regards,
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Postby Michael » Sat Dec 20, 2003 12:49 am

The "fast form" does not exist in this branch of the Yang Family. It is found in some of the others however. Whether these have a basis in the Yang family itself--Lu Chan, Ban Hou, Jian Hou, or if it is from their students I do not know.
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Postby rvc_ve » Sun Dec 21, 2003 1:36 am

I never learned a "fast form" per se. Hoever, I was encouraged by my teacher to practice the regular form faster, while keeping the proper requirements, until reaching a speed really close to fighting speed. I wonder if any of the users who are registered members could foward a question to Master yang jun, respectfully asking him about his opinion on this? Thank you
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Postby HengYu » Mon Dec 22, 2003 7:25 am

What an interesting thread - thank you all! So there's two ways of viewing something;

1) Objective.
2) Subjective.

The hop is quite common as a form of uprooting. Fighting the uprooting would be against the principles of taijiquan, of course, so the practitioner learns to ride the waves of energy. If a practitioner literally 'jumped' back, they would be breaking the push-hands contact, rather than staying connected and trying to neutralise the incoming power. A jump backward takes away the immediacy of the ability to turn the situation and would be external in nature. However, if the energy is risng and falling, this can create a hop like motion-the hop itself can neutralise incoming energy, without compremising the ability to neuralise and counter, etc. It is a variation of the up and down movement of some Yang postures, such as 'Playing the Lute', or 'White Crane Spreads Wings', for example.
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Postby Wushuer » Mon Dec 22, 2003 3:58 pm

No, the fast form isn't really the slow form sped up. Not at all. At least not in the Wu Chien Chuan tradition.
The Wu family fast form is a "round form", while thier 108 traditional, or "slow" form is a "square form". It's really quite different. There are some leaps in it, small but they are there, and the fajing is emphasized heavily throughout. It was shown only to Senior students when I attended the Academy, as a training method for free style sparring. The increased speed, the leaps, the fajing, all helped you prepare your mind for what was, essentially, free style combat.
I used to use it as a warm up for free style sparring, to get my body ready for the kind of physical effort required of such a thing.
We also learned to perform the traditional, "square form" at greater speeds, but that came after learning the fast form. The requirement was that the form had to be exactly the same, with the same principals applied and adhered to throughout, as when you did the form slowly. It is an excellent excercise in self control.
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Postby rvc_ve » Mon Dec 22, 2003 3:59 pm

But then again if you're using the hop as a technique, you should remain in control of you own body, without the need of two guys to cath you like on this particular video!!!!
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Postby rvc_ve » Mon Dec 22, 2003 4:03 pm

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Wushuer:
[B]No, the fast form isn't really the slow form sped up. Not at all. At least not in the Wu Chien Chuan tradition.

Thats true on Wu Style, but I was refering to Yang style in which there is no aditional fast form. At least thats what I've been taught and what I have observed in other lineages of Yang Style.

The fast from on Wu Style, as well as the Slow 108 Wu set, comes from the lineage of Yang Ban Hou, Uncle of Yang Chen Fu, who taught Wu Jian Quan Taijiquan, that he later modified to create Wu style. The style he learned from Ban Hou is called by some historians as the "small frame set", as opposed to Chen fu's "Large FRame".
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Postby Wushuer » Mon Dec 22, 2003 4:12 pm

Close, but you have it backward.
Chuan Yu learned the large frame from Ban Hou, the small frame from Lu Chan. This is well documented.
Ban Hou got very upset with his father when he returned from his travels and found that Lu Chan had taught the "small circles" to Chuan Yu. His preferred method of teaching, the "no pain, no gain" method, was circumvented by his fathers teaching Chuan Yu the "small circles" or "small frame" methods that Ban Hou had previously used to constantly defeat Chuan Yu during training. When Chuan Yu and Ban Hou crossed hands to train, Chuan Yu quickly defeated Ban Hou using these same methods, and when he asked Chuan Yu where he had learned these techniques Chuan Yu admitted that Lu Chan had taught him.
It is recorded that Ban Hou and Lu Chan had words over this.
Chuan Yu actually followed Lu Chans carriage out of town when he left, and when he caught up with the Master he was told by Lu Chan that he had learned all he could teach him and he should go forth and teach on his own.
These things are well documented by both the Wu and Yang families.
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Postby Wushuer » Mon Dec 22, 2003 4:30 pm

I have to agree with you about the catchers, they are not, or should not be, necessary.
But then again, take into account the apparent lack of skill of the guy being pushed around. If he didn't have those spotters, he would likely be smeared all over the wall.
My first thought upon watching this video still stays with me...
At first glance this looks like a very good advertisement for this teacher. "Look at me! I can toss students around so much they leap up off the floor when I push them and require two guys to catch them after I do! Aint I just the BEST?".
However, on second thought it is really a very bad advertisement for this instructor.
"Look! You too can be a student who has no skill. Just take instruction from me and you will learn how to get tossed around so badly you will need two guys to catch you and mats to keep you from harm."
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Postby Wushuer » Mon Dec 22, 2003 4:46 pm

Ah, I knew I had it available somewhere.
Here, for the edification of all who care, is the official Wu family version of how Master Wu Chuan Yau learned TCC:

A long time ago during the reigns of Huo (1851) and Tung (1862) in the Ching Dynasty, Master Wu Chuan Yau was employed by the royal household. He was from the Ta-hsing district of the province of Hopei. At that time many Manchu princes studied a martial art, namely Tai Chi Chuan, in order to improve their health. They were taught by Yang Lu-chan and his son, Yang Pan-hou. Because they only taught Manchu princes or guards of the royal household, everyone thought that this was an aristocratic art. Further, because the body and arms in Tai Chi Chuan moved slowly, people thought it to be beneficial for health, but not equally useful as a martial art. People in general held this view and Master Wu Chuan Yau and others in the martial arts worlds were no exception.

When Yang Pan-hou taught people, he held to the principle of "no pain, no gain". Every time he would Push Hands with his disciples, they would fall so often that they injured their arms and legs. Many Manchu princes and royal guards suffered so much that they stopped studying. At that time, among the royal guards, there were only three who had not quit, and Master Wu Chuan Yau was one of them. However, Master Wu Chuan Yau suffered so much from Yang Pan-hou's brutal treatment that his left leg had become slightly lame.

What the Son didn't teach, the Father taught.
Master Wu Chuan Yau studied in this arduous way till he mastered the skills of the Big Circles; but he still knew nothing about the Small Circles. One day Yang Pan-hou wanted to leave Beijing and return to this old home in the district of Huang-ping. For this reason, his father took over his duties teaching the Manchu princes and the three hardy, but barely surviving royal guards. Yang Lu-chan noticed that Master Wu Chuan Yau's left leg was slightly lame and asked him the reason. Master Wu Chuan Yau answered truthfully. However, he stressed that although this was the case, he still wished to continue training.

Impressed by these words, Yang Lu-chan felt that this kind of young man who was willing to undergo such hardships, after having been so knocked down, was rare. In addition, he could tell from this that Yang Pan-hou had only taught Master Wu Chuan Yau the Big Circles skills and had not taught any of the Small Circles skills to this long-suffering lad-in-training. Otherwise, he would not have become crippled, as a result of falling back on his leg so often during Push Hands, because he was unable to push Yang Pan-hou back.

After watching him carefully for several days, he felt that the lad was worth teaching. Then he threw out entirely the Big Circles that Master Wu Chuan Yau had previously learned from Yang Pan-hou and started from the beginning with the Small Circles method. This continued for three years, and during that time Master Wu Chuan Yau was learning everything without even realizing it.

When the Teacher left, his Disciple followed.
After three years had passed, Yang Pan-hou returned to the capital from Huang-ping district. Naturally Yang Lu-chan surrendered his teaching position to his son. Yang Pan-hou continued to teach the Big Circles, just as before, using his principles of "no pain, no gain". While Pushing Hands with Master Wu Chuan Yau, several times he attempted to discharge energy to topple Master Wu Chuan Yau, but Master Wu Chuan Yau always neutralized it. Yang Pan-hou immediately realized that his father had taught the Small Circles to Master Wu Chuan Yau. He brought Pushing Hands to a halt and went to Yang Lu-chan and said simply, "Henceforth, the Yang Family's Tai Chi Chuan would no longer be transmitted from father to son."

Yang Lu-chan immediately admonished him, replying, "The Ching Dynasty Manchu princes are foreigners. If you hadn't taught them, then you could say that. Master Wu Chuan Yau is of the same tribe. His dedication and tenacity are rare. Why can you not teach him the same skill?" At this Yang Pang-hou was at a loss for words and had no comeback. From then on he joined him in teaching Master Wu Chuan Yau the Small Circles skill.

After a good many years passed like this, Yang Lu-chan wanted to leave the capital and return to Huang-ping district. Yang Lu-chan had ridden for several days, when the driver noticed that someone was following the carriage. Feeling this was strange, he mentioned it to Yang Lu-chan who raised the green oil-cloth shade behind the carriage and saw at once that the person following the carriage was not a stranger, but was Master Wu Chuan Yau. Summoning him to the front of the carriage, he asked him why he was following and was reluctant to part? Master Wu Chuan Yau spoke up without any reserve and said that he wanted to return home with Yang Lu-chan and continue training with him. Yang Lu-chan disclosed to him that after searching his heart, he clearly saw that he had taught him as much as he could and had held nothing back. So there was really no need for him to study further, and nor was there any need for him to remain in the capital and continue studying with Yang Pan-hou. He could even teach others. After saying all this, he continued on his journey. Master Wu Chuan Yau watched the carriage pass into the distance, and with his heart full of sadness, he returned.

After Master Wu Chuan Yau's return to the capital, he told Yang Pan-hou what Yang Lu-chan had said. Yang Pan-hou acknowledged that he could teach disciples, as he had studied the complete Yang family system of Tai Chi Chuan, both the Big Circles and Small Circles, for ten years and had advanced to the highest level. Obtaining Yang Pan-hou's permission, Master Wu Chuan Yau immediately resigned his military position and set about establishing a training hall to teach Tai Chi Chuan.

He wanted to demonstrate that what he would teach and Yang Family Tai Chi Chuan would differ in the following respects: First, he would only teach common people in his training hall, not Manchu princes. Second, his style would not have Big Circle and Small Circle Divisions, but emphasize only Small Circle Tai Chi Chuan. From this, he created a style which he called Wu Family Tai Chi Chuan.

After he established his training hall and could clearly differentiate himself from Yang Pan-hou, he broke off from the Yang standard. Yang Pan-hou continued to teach only Manchu princes and royal guards and only taught them Big Circle Yang Family Tai Chi Chuan. Master Wu Chuan Yau, on the contrary did not teach Manchu princes and royal guards, but only commoners; and he only taught Small Circle Wu Family Tai Chi Chuan. Because of this, in a short time, his disciples became more numerous than those of Yang Pan-hou in the royal palace.

After a time, just after the 1911 revolution sixty years ago that toppled the Ching Dynasty, because Master Wu Chuan Yau was getting old, he left Beijing and moved his family back to his ancestral home in Ta-hsing district in the province of Hopei, resolutely disbanding his classes. His son was Master Wu Chien Chuan. Taught from an early age in Beijing by his father, Master Wu Chuan Yau, he had an excellent foundation. After returning to Ta-hsing, Master Wu Chuan Yau devoted all his attention to teaching him. The method he used was the same as Yang Pan-hou's "no pain, no gain."

During this period, Master Wu Chien Chuan counted on suffering. Often when father and son Pushed Hands, Master Wu Chuan Yau would use his former vigour to throw this son to higher and higher heights, before crashing down. This method of "no pain, no gain" was the way Master Wu Chuan Yau taught Master Wu Chien Chuan all his secrets.

After disbanding, Master Chien Chuan establishes his name.
After a time, Master Wu Chuan Yau, in turn, delivered the same speech to Master Wu Chien Chuan that Yang Lu-chan had said to him. He informed him that he had taught Wu Chien Chuan all of the secret methods of Wu Family Tai Chi Chuan. There was no need for him to teach him further, and he could now watch him receive disciples and teach. Master Wu Chien Chuan respectfully accepted his destiny. However, Master Wu Chuan Yau did not actually see Master Wu Chien Chuan receive disciples, as shortly thereafter he died.

After Master Wu Chuan Yau's death, Master Wu Chien Chuan prepared to carry out his fathers words to teach Wu Family Tai Chi Chuan to disciples. At that time there was a group in Beijing headed by Hsu Yu-sheng who went to the Wu home in Ta-hsing to invite Master Wu Chien Chuan to return to Beijing to continue his father's wishes to teach Wu Family Tai Chi Chuan in Beijing. Because of this Master Wu Chien Chuan demonstrated his talent in Beijing for the first time, so that Wu Family Tai Chi Chuan was developed further.

[This message has been edited by Wushuer (edited 12-22-2003).]
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Postby rvc_ve » Mon Dec 22, 2003 4:57 pm

LOL!!!!! agreed wushuer! why pay a guy to toss you around if you can go to you local bar and get tossed around for free!!!

Its a strange demo thats for sure! I dont know what skills he is trying to show, we would have to ask him,but it does not have real values as a video to show what push hands should look and feel like.

I guess I have the story backward! I've read it in several places the way I told it, but this happens all the time with martial arts history, its really confusing and there are several versions of ther same story...Its ok though!
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