Combat value of push-hand

Combat value of push-hand

Postby rakyat » Thu Apr 21, 2005 2:24 pm

Hi,
In most fighting encounters, your opponent will punch or kick at you, often a barrage of punches and kicks. For example, if the guy is trained in kickboxing or thai kickboxing. Isn't it unlikely to have opportunity to apply push-hand techniques?

regards
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Postby Anderzander » Thu Apr 21, 2005 4:32 pm

Hello

I think a lot could be said here – but I will limit myself to this:

Push hands is not limited to training pushing, nor is it limited to training techniques - it is not even limited to training energy. It also trains the mind.

You can stick to their (the attacker’s) body before you have made contact – you give up your own intention and allow the two of you to move as one. This allows you to know the other persons intention.

(You know them but they do not know you)

When you know their intention you can set off after them but arrive first.

The actual technique can come from the form or from the application of the energy. Many, many changes come from the principle.

So with push hands teaching Taiji’s adhere, stick, connect, follow then I would say any encounter would use pushing hands.

Stephen
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Postby shugdenla » Thu Apr 21, 2005 8:57 pm

rakyat,

Tuishou concepts are always good to learn and incorporate but sadly the martial part of shuaijiao and qi'na are lacking.

Therefore tuishou is useless in the present scenario. One may use it (if one can) in concept to apply na, shuai, etc.
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Postby chris » Thu Apr 21, 2005 9:11 pm

No matter how complicated the opponent's attack, there is always a single movement that crosses the threshold to relevance. You must recognize it and engage them at this point. Act sooner and you waste effort, act later...you probably won't get the chance.
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Postby CheeFattTaichi » Fri Apr 22, 2005 3:50 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by rakyat:
<B>Hi,
In most fighting encounters, your opponent will punch or kick at you, often a barrage of punches and kicks. For example, if the guy is trained in kickboxing or thai kickboxing. Isn't it unlikely to have opportunity to apply push-hand techniques?

regards</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tui shou is practical in fighting if only you are doing the `right' method with right `yi'. There are these objectives of combat taiji:-

One, I must be able to fully control and subdue my opponent once we touch. At the first contact, opponent's root must be broken so that his jin is broken and he will lost all strengths and be at my mercy. Therefore, in tui shou `yi' must be real and concentrated. Whenever I push, my yi is on full alert to explore weaknesses and control. When yielding, again my `yi' is focussed on gathering jin ready to be emitted. Therefore, in tui shou every moment, every move is equipped with attacking and defending abilities.

Two, I use two hands to attack my opponent's one hand. Once touches, I will control his ability to attack by breaking his root and Chong Ding. If he withdraw, I will strike but if he strike, I will strike at his strike i.e. Chai or Lieh which again, can defeat him.

No matter how many times opponent intent to strikes and continue to strike, it does not matter because as soon as my hand touches his first strike, I will be controlling all his movements and he will be at my mercy. This is what taiji push hand (tung jin) is all about. In taiji classic it was said if one attain tung jin, one will come close to invinsibility and Ynag Lu Chan and others had proved this many times around.
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Postby Audi » Sun Apr 24, 2005 9:09 pm

Greetings all:

I think I agree with all the previous replies and especially with what CheeFatt has said. I would also like to add a little.

I think I recall Yang Chengfu being quoted in Da Wen (?) (Questions and Answers?) with an answer to a similar question as the one originally posted here. If memory serves, he said that no matter how fast and furiously the opponent throws punches and kicks, he or she must attempt to touch you to do real harm. With that attempt, you can make contact and begin to “follow.” If you follow correctly, you will overcome.

Push hands is training and not sparring or fighting; however, push hands ranges from the very safe and highly stylized to the somewhat dangerous and highly variable. Even beginning applications of many of the eight energies can cause serious harm. They are not merely artificial exercises with no martial purpose.

One point of push hands is to understand the use of energy. If you understand enough, you can apply long energy to move your opponent safely, but powerfully, across a room. You can also apply short energy in the same configuration to allow the same power to remain in the opponent’s body with no movement across the room.

From what I have read and been told about combat theory, Taijiquan teaches that you want to make physical contact where possible in order to allow for maximum Listening ability. You attempt never to separate, once contact is established. In certain circumstances, physical separation may nonetheless be unavoidable; but, even, then your mind intent must not separate. In other words, you are expected to do Adhering, Sticking, Connecting, and Following 100% of the time, whether physically touching or not.

The little I have experienced of this kind of interaction is just as CheeFatt describes. From my understanding, a Taijiquan practitioner is not supposed trade punches and kicks with his or her opponent or simply bob and weave to evade strikes. Instead, he or she is supposed to control the opponent’s movements. “Know the other, but do not let yourself be known.” This is a profoundly different strategy from what most martial arts teach and from what most people think of as “sparring.”

Not too long ago, I had a direct experience of this when someone teaching a seminar walked me about a 15-foot square during a simulated, but unchoreographed beating, using only the energy from my feeble attempts at covering up and making sure that I would not end up in the hospital by a misplaced simulated strike. During the 10 to 20 seconds this took, I had no real control over my body placement or position and no effective ability to attack or defend. At times, I could neither fall to the ground nor stand on two legs without the acquiescence of my opponent. My friends later described me as a being played with like a rag doll.

There were many times that we temporarily separated, but he always reconnected. There might have been a few moments when I was in a Qin Na hold, but this was not the primary means of control. What my opponent did was “Adhere” to keep bringing me out of my root, “Stick” to prevent me from opening up “space” to recover, “Connect/Link” to prevent me from being able to turn a corner or effect a reversal, and “Follow” so that I could never seem to get at him or find a way to deny him further energy.

As I understand it, the way to obtain this sort of skill is to become intimately aware of Push Hands energies so that you can feel for them in gradually more difficult and dynamic circumstances. If you opponent has no experience with this, it will be hard for him or her to breach your defenses or withstand your counterattacks, since he or she will not understand what exactly you are doing.

Take care,
Audi
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Postby rakyat » Tue Apr 26, 2005 10:32 am

Hi All,
Thanks for the replies. It's still not easy for me to visualize such techniques being used against UFC style attacks or muay-thai style attacks.

I have not been able to get any videos of tai chi being used in fights. The only one I could locate was a 1954 fight between Wu stylist vs white crane. But in that fight, adhering and sticking was not apparent.
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Postby Bamenwubu » Tue Apr 26, 2005 2:50 pm

Audi,
This sounds very similar to experiences I have with Bill, every week!
I'm kidding, but only a little.
I frequently feel like I'm a "rag doll" when he's demonstrating to the class on me.
I've become the de facto tackling dummy for our classes, so I have a good idea what you mean in your description.
I do, however, learn quite a bit from my time in the clutches.
Like when you begin to fall over backwards, the only thing you're thinking about is how NOT to hit the floor with your head. You aren't in control at that moment, so it's a moot point, but you think it nonetheless.

Image

Bob
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Postby Bill Rush » Wed Apr 27, 2005 3:05 pm

I think that the basic rules of any combat situation would apply were a kickboxer/hard-stylist to be involved in a fight with a tai chi stylist; It depends how good a kickboxer and how good a tai chi exponent! I think the self-defence attraction of hard styles is probably that some 'practical' competence can be achieved in a relatively short space of time, with physical size and strength being a possible advantage or disadvantage. Also intention is an issue..the hard stylist may not be attempting to follow any rules of 'moral' conduct during the conflict ie: She/He WANTS to hurt you. I practice tai chi but understand that at the moment my couple of years of amateur boxing/ju jitsu as a kid would probably be my best line of defence in the horrible event of a mugging or threat to my family. But maybe not when I've been practising tai chi for another 20 years!
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Postby chris » Thu Apr 28, 2005 9:28 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by rakyat:
...I have not been able to get any videos of tai chi being used in fights. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If someone attacks you, and you give them a single punch to the chest, dropping them and ending the fight...have you just used Tai Chi in a fight? If not, why not?
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Postby bamboo leaf » Fri Apr 29, 2005 2:46 am

(Hi,
In most fighting encounters, your opponent will punch or kick at you, often a barrage of punches and kicks. For example, if the guy is trained in kickboxing or thai kickboxing. Isn't it unlikely to have opportunity to apply push-hand techniques?
regards )

I think you must first really look at the reality of combat meaning that most view it as some type of sport as is indicated by your question. In china I know of 60 yr old woman who threw the attacker into a wall and held them there for the police when he tried to steal her hand bag.

The correct touch, and understanding yi, my teacher in china had someone who was visiting try to take him down at his invitation to try anything he wanted on him.

the guy a visiting MA teacher from holland went for the take down, the master touched the back of the guys shoulder as the guy grabbed his legs to take him down, the guy could not move. He could not move because he couldn¡¯t command his body to move. The yi of my teacher was strong enough that the guy was unable to move his own body. The teacher is 86 BTW.

This is what push hands should be teaching, the understanding, use and development of the correct touch and use of the higher aspects of taiji. once this is understood the outer from of the movement dosent matter much, punch, kick or throw.

david


[This message has been edited by bamboo leaf (edited 04-28-2005).]
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Postby rakyat » Fri Apr 29, 2005 3:39 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
the master touched the back of the guys shoulder as the guy grabbed his legs to take him down, the guy could not move. He could not move because he couldn¡¯t command his body to move.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is this a kind of dim mak technique ?
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Postby shugdenla » Fri Apr 29, 2005 7:57 pm

rakyat,

That scenario has never been realistic of the 'instant touch syndrome' that immediately stops an attack.

The mechanics of taijiquan are contained in shuaijiao and qi'na.
Since we talk about ethics so often, the skilled ethical person never attacks without provocation. Wude!!

Try Dr Yang's book on shuaijiao pertaining to taijiquan.
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Postby bamboo leaf » Sat Apr 30, 2005 1:49 am

(Is this a kind of dim mak technique ?)

no just an example of what can be done with high levle tech. historcaly this type of tech has been exbited by earlyer members of the yang family.

[This message has been edited by bamboo leaf (edited 05-01-2005).]
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Postby CheeFattTaichi » Sat Apr 30, 2005 7:56 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by chris:
If someone attacks you, and you give them a single punch to the chest, dropping them and ending the fight...have you just used Tai Chi in a fight? If not, why not?</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In taiji yang style there are punches too like fist under elbow, embrace tiger return to mountain, twin peaks strike the ears, advance step deflect, parry and punch etc. Whether it is a taiji punch or not depended on whether taiji principles are followed. Whether brute strength is used or jin supported by chi and yi. What most important in taiji is the inner principle, it would be innorance to think that taiji fighters must attach, stick and follow before strike. Those thing can be done mentally too according to circumstances. Scenarion, when opponent charges in, we mentally stick to the charging direction, then retreat a little bit to follow his momentum so that his initial target is lost and then we create an opening and we strike by lunching-in occupying his `door' and overwhelm him with our yi and jin. Taiji classic puts it...no shadow, no form, follow what comes naturally, change with changes, this is taiji.
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