Push Hand Strategy

Postby CheeFattTaichi » Wed Jul 27, 2005 3:22 pm

Hi Goto,

[QUOTE]In my opinion why long fajin is rarely used in hand-pushing is that short fajin is easy to execute and more powerful and concealing [QUOTE].

Over here I encounter more people using long jin in push hands than short. Are you refering short fajin as pushing with fast motion? If it is, this is not the short fajin I am refering to. Short jin is far more difficult to do that long because it require a higher level of sung and flexibility to change from complete soft to hard and return. The force exploded suddenly and dissappear almost simultaneously. Long fajin is easier because one have more time to adjust from soft to hard and vice versa. Usually people must be able to do long fajin considerable well before can advance into short fajin.

[QUOTE}The meaning of saying is that at begining and in middle of the punching ,the fist is loose and soft.When touching the body, the fist is hard and the power or jin is eploding to maxium.Because of soft and loose fist, the speed of punching is quick and fast [QUOTE]

Taiji speed I am refering to is derived from the quality of sung and tingjin. Karateka spent too much time thinking on the mechanic of relax, tense , relax kind of thing when strike. Whereas in taiji we concentrate more on yi and energy. We don't concern ourselves with the mechanic, we concern ourselves with the delivery of power. There's a saying in taiji that "yi reach, sight reach, power reach". Because we are very sung and we trained our body to follow yi, whenever we intent to hit a target, we look at it, the energy, power and body will just follow at the same time. Hence, yi reach, sight reach and our fist will reach simultaneously. Externalist once intended to hit will have to activate their mechanics i.e.body to follow hence a delay. Mechanical wise, taiji hits with the body so to speak, therefore we need not pull back our hand to gather momentum. This give us distant and time advantage. All these combined, make us strike faster.
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Postby goto » Wed Jul 27, 2005 4:10 pm

Hi
Bamenwubu

""Something you posted has sprung up in my mind. You stated:
"Few of them can pratise the form correctly according to the yangchenfu's books."
I was wondering if you could explain what you meant by that? ""

Yes, i make a mistake on the statement.

I have seen some people practicing yang style taiji quan.Some of them are famous, and some are not .I did not refer to all the people who practice yang style taichi quan.I only metioned the peole who i have seen before. And i found it strange,that the forms they practiced were very different to the pictures taken by yang chen fu,the creater of yang style and also the father of yang zhen duo. I have read the book written by yang chen pu , and his pictures of the yang style form were very beautiful and powerful and gave me a deep impression
However, when i watehed some current people practicsing forms,who claimed to be the student of yang style,I don't know why these peole change a lot in the yang style taichi quan comparing to the pictures of yang cheng pu. The result is that what they changed made the yang styel taichi quan look ugly and lack of power and energy.It is the reason why i say they did not practice yang style quan correctly
Therefore i want to know the original forms,especially yang zhen duo.
Maybe i am wrong with my feeling about their fomrs,because my experience and training in taichi quan are very short.But i prefer the origial yang chen pu's taichi quan

In contrast. in yang zhen duo's forms, he also change some.Actually i think it can not be called "changed ".He develop some forms instead of changing.And as you metioned above, the develping about the form was very subtle
Viewing from the whole movement and single movement in yang zhen duo's form, the pattern , the hand movement,the body posture are directly inherited from yang chen pu.comparing to yang chen pu's pictures
So when i saw the forms of yang zhen duo from video, i have a feeling that his forms was so close to that of his father.It can be called the traditional yang style taichi quan .
I hope you can understand what i mean.
If you have any questions,please let me know.

Cheers



[This message has been edited by goto (edited 07-27-2005).]
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Postby goto » Wed Jul 27, 2005 4:33 pm

Hi
CheeFattTaichi

[QUOTE}Taiji speed I am refering to is derived from the quality of sung and tingjin. Karateka spent too much time thinking on the mechanic of relax, tense , relax kind of thing when strike. Whereas in taiji we concentrate more on yi and energy. We don't concern ourselves with the mechanic, we concern ourselves with the delivery of power. There's a saying in taiji that "yi reach, sight reach, power reach". Because we are very sung and we trained our body to follow yi, whenever we intent to hit a target, we look at it, the energy, power and body will just follow at the same time. Hence, yi reach, sight reach and our fist will reach simultaneously. Externalist once intended to hit will have to activate their mechanics i.e.body to follow hence a delay. Mechanical wise, taiji hits with the body so to speak, therefore we need not pull back our hand to gather momentum. This give us distant and time advantage. All these combined, make us strike faster. [QUOTE}

I am sorry for wrong explaination of the speed concept you mentioned.

I see what is your meaning about speed concept.The "yi" is an interesting topic .Thank you for explaining and i will read more books to undestand "yi" concept.

Cheers



[This message has been edited by goto (edited 07-27-2005).]
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Postby Bamenwubu » Wed Jul 27, 2005 4:54 pm

Goto,
I understand now.
Well....
There is more than one "Traditional" Yang style form. Yang Cheng Fu lineage is not the only the Yang lineage that can claim to be "of the family". Do you understand what I am saying?
Yang Lu Chan had more than one son. Each of those sons had more sons, and so on. Each generation has slightly advanced the forms, in their opinion. None of them is more or less "legitimate" than the other.
It goes further. There have been people outside the Yang family who have learned the art of TCC from them and have since advanced the forms to suit their opinion of what is more correct for them. And for them it more than likely is correct.
But I'll stick to just the Yang family for now, as that by itself is convoluted enough for our conversation.
Yang Lu Chan learned his art from the Chen family, that much is clear from all accounts. He then "advanced" their family style to suit his own needs. So we have a split from the "original" form Yang Lu Chan learned right from the founder of the Yang family. This was the start of the differentation of Chen family style and Yang family style TCC.
His sons each had their own personalities and body types. These differences lead them to further "advance" the forms of the Yang family style to more closely suit their own needs. They then taught their students their forms, and those students who reached the highest levels then "advanced" each of those forms even further to suit their own needs.
Each of these forms are quite legitimately Yang family forms, they are traditional to the family, however for many reasons they are all quite different in appearence.
Back to the Yang family, Lu Chans sons each had sons. Yang Ban Hou sired Yang Zhao Pen, who apparently did not have any children. I don't know any more about him. Yang Jian Hou sired three sons, one of whom unfortunately passed away when young. Yang Zhao Xing, also knows as Yang Shao Hou, and Yang Zhao Qing who became known as Yang Cheng Fu.
Just the differences in form and style between the second generation, the sons of Lu Chan, alone would have given us many "legitimate, traditional" forms to follow, but the sons of Yang Shao Hou each then also advanced the forms after them.
In fact, Yang Cheng Fu advanced his forms a number of times during his lifetime, as I would imagine did many of the others.

I hope from this you can see that there are quite a large number of very legitimate, very "tradtional" Yang family forms out there.
I don't know that I would ever have the cheek to say that one is "better" or more advanced than the other. I think that they all will have their plusses and minuses.
I will not go further into that debate on this thread, except to say that if you are looking for something that you can pin your hat on as being "THE", qualified "true", form of Yang Cheng Fu...
I don't know that you're going to find any one form you can say that about. I don't know if anyone will ever know exactly which of Yang Cheng Fu's forms would be considered "the" form.
However, I do feel that we can't be steered wrong by the direct lineage holders of Yang Cheng Fu, and ultimately of Yang Lu Chan, on learning a fully functional Yang family style of TCC to further our own advancement of TCC.
Especially as the current lineage holders are such dedicated and fine teachers of their families art.

Bob
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Postby cheefatt taichi » Thu Jul 28, 2005 2:34 am

Fully agree with Bamenwubu's view. I 've seen pictures of Yang Cheng Fu in Single Whip one when he was young and another aged. Both are significantly different. I guess it all boils back to the classics of taichi chuan that says "no shape no form, everything is natural". You stick to taichi principles and how the form should be performed is based on individual. Even YCF's most senior student Tung Yin Chieh did the form differently then YCF. In his form, concave of chest is very obvious and beautifully done. His son Tung Huling's form also varies slightly. It is the internal principles that denote whether it is genuine taichi chuan or not, not the physical form.

Again I fully agree with Bamenwubu, if you learn it from sifu Yang Jun, you cannot be wrong.
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Postby goto » Thu Jul 28, 2005 12:24 pm

Hi

I agree with cheefatt taichi's
statement that no shape no form, everything is natural.

This is high level of taichi quan.To attain to its goal should spend a lot of time on practicing the forms. For me it is easier to understand shape than to understand "no shape" beacuse i am a beginner

I have seen some videos of that people who claim to be the student of student... of yang ban hou or yang jian hou. But i did not sure whether they maintain the original style of the tradtional yang ban hou or yang jian hou's forms. Because there was no pictures or videos of yang ban hou or yang jian or their direct lineage except Yang chen Fu.Yang che fu was direct linage.But his forms was totally differnt from forms of that people ouside the yangfamily .I don't say they are cheating or they pracice wrong taichi quan. Maybe they are original forms,and i am wrong about the suspicion about them. But they can not convice me that they practice traditional forms. For example in yang chen pu,there are a lot difference between yang chen pu and Tung Yin Chieh .If i had not seen the pictures of yang zhen pu, i would think:Tung Yin Chieh was his eldest student and must have learn from yang chen pu for many years and then Tung Yin Chieh's forms must be very close and similar to that of yang chen pu.Howerver, i saw the pictures of yang chen pu. Alough the Tung Yin Chieh was his direct disciple, his forms change a lot comparing to his teachers,such as concave of chest. In the pictures of yang chen pu, i haven's seen concave of chest . In yang zhen duo's forms i have not see it either. I guess the cause may be Imagene is that yang chen pu only taught it to Tung Yin Chieh,did not taught his son, yang zhen duo-But the cause is impossible. Another cause yang chen pu and yang zhen duo practice wronly.--the cause is impossible as well.Last cause is that yang chen pu did not teach Tung Yin Chieh to practice concave of chest ,which was only created by Tung Yin Chieh himself. I dare not to say that what Tung Yin Chieh practice was wrong. Anyway,When i learn yang sytle taiji chuqn ,i should have a standard.AS cheefatt taichi wrote:
His son Tung Huling's form also varies slightly". There are slight differnce between father and son,but there are a lot of difference between the teachers and student. Therefore i can not imagine in those peole who was only the student of student ....of yang ban hou or yang jian hou or yang chen pu,how many change they have made to the yang style quan.
This suspiction always sprung up on my mind. What i can do is to search the direct linage of yangfamily, to see the forms which was close to original and tradition as posibble as i can.
It is only my view about the people outside the yang family.

I fully agree cheefatt taichi and Bamenwubu
.that if you learn from yang jun, you can not be wrong.

I go further on this topic about the people ouside the yang family.
I am more interested in forms of yang zhen duo and yang jun.Their words and theores will helpful for me.

cheers




[This message has been edited by goto (edited 07-28-2005).]

[This message has been edited by goto (edited 07-28-2005).]

[This message has been edited by goto (edited 07-28-2005).]
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Postby CheeFattTaichi » Thu Jul 28, 2005 2:44 pm

If I am not mistaken when Yang Ceng Fu passed away, his sons were still very young. Yang Sau Chung confessed that most parts of his taiji was learned from his father's senior students i.e Tung Yin Chieh and few others. In a way, Yang style was broken away from Yang family after Yang Cheng Fu but Chinese tradition is such that senior students are obliged to give back the Yang family heritage to direct blood of Yang family. Hence, it was said the "eldest" of Yang Cheng Fu's kungfu after him was Tung Yin Chieh.

Personally I don't believe Yang Lu Chan & Yang Pan Hou 's form is very much different than Yang Cheng Fu like some self-confessed Yang Sau Hau student claimed i.e. fast set. I was told in Yang family there are only big, middle and small frames and all of them are from the same form. Yang Cheng Fu merely made the movements bigger and one should train begin with big and work back to small when skill advances. A totally different form is a far cry.
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Postby Bamenwubu » Thu Jul 28, 2005 2:45 pm

Goto,
If you look at the list of the Ten Essentials (links to the complete list, in English, can be found on the front page of the Yang family website we are on, under Tai Chi Info, then Essays) which is the list of essential principles for the practice of Yang Cheng Fu style TCC as orally transmitted by Yang Cheng Fu to his student Chen Weiming, you will find that the second Essential is listed as:
"2. Hold in the chest and pull up the back

The phrase 'hold in the chest' means the chest is slightly reserved inward, which causes the chi to sink to the cinnabar field (dan1 tian2). The chest must not be puffed out. If you do so then the chi is blocked in the chest region, the upper body becomes heavy and lower body light, and it will become easy for the heels to float upward. 'Pulling up the back' makes the chi stick to the back. If you are able to hold in the chest then you will naturally be able to pull up the back. If you can pull up the back, then you will be able to emit a strength from the spine which others cannot oppose."

Notice that the oral transmission of this Essental principle for Yang family TCC translates to "SLIGHTLY reserved inward", not "sink your chest until visible from twenty paces at midnight".
I believe you will find that the Grand Master Yang Zhen Duo does, indeed, sink the chest while doing his forms.
Not so obviously as some others, perhaps, but I doubt sincerely that he is incorrectly performing this Essential as espoused by his father.
Master Yang Jun, in seminars and on his training DVD, makes the practice of this Essential clear, as well.
One (see, I can learn from mistakes) does not need to sink ones chest into the ground to correctly perform this Essential, after all. It can be extremely subtle.
Also beware of the tendency to over raise the back when trying to sink the chest. As with all things, there is a happy medium, or middle ground, to this second Essential. The concept as I understand it now is to sink the chest and raise the back, slightly, to make a connection between these parts of your body and your spine. Again, my understanding is limited and this is only my current opinion, not to be taken as anything other than that.
Some day, perhaps, I will learn to do this correctly myself. At this point I have the merest beginners idea of how this works in Yang family TCC. Enough to be able to say, "Aha!" and work on it with some amount of success, but not enought to say, "Ah..." and feel comfortable that I have found how to do this with complete accuracy.
Some day....

Bob
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Postby Bamenwubu » Thu Jul 28, 2005 3:16 pm

Chee Fatt,
Not all of Yang Cheng Fu's sons were "young" when he passed away. Yang Zhen Ming, known as Shou Zhong, was 26 when his father passed away, and had been trained extensively by his father. I can't be certain, but most of the accounts I've read about Yang Zhen Ming state he began training with his grandfather, father, Uncles and their disciples when he was six.
That would follow the traditional pattern I've read about in the TCC families.
That would have given him twenty years of study under his father.
Yang Zhen Ji was fifteen when his father passed away, if the tradition of beginning training at six was followed in his case, that's nine years of direct training from Yang Cheng Fu, the Yang family and thier disciples.
So I don't think the lineage was "broken away" by any stretch of the imagination.
However, this is only my opinion, which is subject to question.
On the other hand, a quick look at the lineage chart of the Yang family, which can be found off of the front page of the Yang family website we are using by following the links: Tai Chi Info, Misc., then family tree, shows that the dates of birth of these two of Yang Cheng Fu's sons match up accurately with the accounts I've found elsewhere of the passing of the lineage.
This is some small amount of verification, but the accounts of the training received by both Yang Zhen Ming and Yang Zhen Ji by their father are easy to find and corroberate this information quite nicely.
I have no direct knowledge of the amount of time or the depth of training of Yang Zhen Duo directly by his father, but he would have been nine years old at the time of his fathers passing, so I feel certain that at least some of his training was given him by his father.
It is said that Yang Zhen Ming traveled extensively with his father, teaching TCC around China and the world. There are stories to the effect that many people who claim to be students of Yang Cheng Fu were in fact never trained by Yang Cheng Fu himself, but were trained soley by Yang Zhen Ming on these travels.
I don't know the veracity of these tales at first hand, obviously, but I've read this same claim in many, many narrations on the life and times of Yang Cheng Fu.
I feel certain we're getting the "real deal" on Yang family Tai Chi Chuan, handed down by the direct lineage holders of the family as we train under the auspices of GM Yang Zhen Duo and his grandson, Master Yang Jun. With no "breaks" or losses in the transmission.

Bob
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Postby goto » Thu Jul 28, 2005 3:38 pm

Hi
Chee Fatt,

"Personally I don't believe Yang Lu Chan & Yang Pan Hou 's form is very much different than Yang Cheng Fu like some self-confessed Yang Sau Hau student claimed i.e. fast set. I was told in Yang family there are only big, middle and small frames and all of them are from the same form. Yang Cheng Fu merely made the movements bigger and one should train begin with big and work back to small when skill advances. A totally different form is a far cry. "
Yes i agree with you statement wholeheard.
That is what i want to think and say .All of these frames come from the same form , and yang cheng Fu just made the movement bigger.

When i want to post something about yang sau chou, i suddenly found that Bamenwubu
had launched into a detailed explaination about yang family ,which i try to do.You wrote what i want to write and more correct than me.Thank you.

I will reply you tomorrow about chest.I ponder about your explaination.
cheers


[This message has been edited by goto (edited 07-28-2005).]
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Postby psalchemist » Thu Jul 28, 2005 4:15 pm

Hi All,

Bamenwubu...

The statement you make about the essential of reserving the chest, raising back slightly is one of those things, although seemingly very subtle in itself, makes a really, really profound difference in ones movement, I find. I just recently pinpointed that my inconsistency with this posturing in the form has been a huge problem...as you say, if one does not capture this essence, one definitely will have problems. And exactly as you mentioned, when I do not pay close attention to attempts at maintaining this slight concavity of chest, I float, feel very top heavy and just cannot root anywhere near effectively. Thus nothing moves right! Image It is an awful, light footed feeling where one can generate NO energy, and I imagine one is completely vulnerable to toppling at the prompt of any pressure. All the "essentials" are essential, I realize...but without focus on that one, might as well just give up the ghost, 'cause your going nowhere. Image

Best wishes,
Psalchemist.
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Postby psalchemist » Thu Jul 28, 2005 4:31 pm

Oh, also...a little tack~on: I find it personally quite trying to raise the back slightly without adding tension to the shoulders, thus raising the shoulders...Tricky, tricky essential it is indeed~

I would be interested in hearing any tips on this particular essential, if anyone has any to offer...

Thank you,
Psalchemist
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Postby bamboo leaf » Fri Jul 29, 2005 1:38 am

(I would be interested in hearing any tips on this particular essential, if anyone has any to offer)

it should be a result of not something to be attained to.
In other words when your form has reached a stage where it really is internal guided by yi directed by qi this will happen by itself not something to be forced

The key and main gate is really that of sung and really using no force in practice all else will follow.

.
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Postby cheefatt taichi » Fri Jul 29, 2005 4:27 am

Hi Bob,

[QUOTE]I feel certain we're getting the "real deal" on Yang family Tai Chi Chuan, handed down by the direct lineage holders of the family as we train under the auspices of GM Yang Zhen Duo and his grandson, Master Yang Jun. With no "breaks" or losses in the transmission. [QUOTE]

I agree 100% there is definitely no losses in the transmission to the present direct Yang lineage. Thanks for your note, my knowledge on this issue is merely on `hearsay' and not research.
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Postby cheefatt taichi » Fri Jul 29, 2005 4:50 am

Hi All,

Don't mistakenly treat concaving of chest or pulling of back as a posture to attain. This will add more stiffness and even obstruct qi flow. You can achieve concave chest by simply dropping your shoulders and relax your chest by sinking upper weight into dantian and kua. To understand its purpose, you must search internally to see how by relaxing and dropping the chest and shoulder, you create an internal connection between upper body and dantian, espeacially the kua (hip). Its purpose is to align the connection so that any exertion of force by the kua can be transmitted up to the upper body. In short, the whole upper and lower body acted as one unit. You need to experimental yourself to find the internal connection and the energy path, then `aha!' concave chest will become second nature.

Pulling of back too needs to be explore using the same manner - force or energy. Once you established the connection with kua, you then experiment how to connect it to the hands and pulling the back is the trick. Don't do this on physical level but apprehend them based on internal connection and strength. Once you get that, your taiji will have great internal strength.

Good luck guys.
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