Does one need push hands?

[bamboo leaf]

Young Fu was shocked when he heard this because the cotton thread was used as a training tool only among the indoor disciples of the Yang style. It was never before shown to outsiders.

Master Yang warmed up by performing “Grasp Sparrow’s Tail” and “Cloud Hands"; thereupon, he took the cotton thread between his thumb and index finger and asked: “Who has the strength of a thousand pounds to tear this piece of thread in half?” Upon hearing this, Liu sneered at Master Yang while sending one of his disciples out to take the challenge. The disciple grabbed the other end of the cotton thread and asked: “When shall we begin?” Master Yang replied by saying: “It is completely up to you.” Following, the disciple fiercely pulled at the thread. Master Yang adhered to his every move. Suddenly the disciple reversed the direction of motion, however, Master Yang, without hesitation, also moved in the same manner.

http://www.geocities.com/meiyingsheng/story.html


I don’t know if this story is true or not, actually it doesn’t matter. What is shows is a level of skill that can not be achieved with out some real inner understanding. Does any one think that it was the pressure of the thread being pulled as to what was being followed?

[artyeo]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by bamboo leaf:
The disciple grabbed the other end of the cotton thread and asked: “When shall we begin?” Master Yang replied by saying: “It is completely up to you.” Following, the disciple fiercely pulled at the thread. Master Yang adhered to his every move. Suddenly the disciple reversed the direction of motion, however, Master Yang, without hesitation, also moved in the same manner.

This is what we call "yi gan"
If any of you ever learn fencing you will know how. when the blade of your foil touches, you can feel your opponent force and you are able to, some what can see what he is going to do next. Like you can read his mind what he is going to do next. Some thing like six sense. This apply to Taichi sticky hand.

bamboo... you seen my clip already what you say.
Can the force or what we say "chi" travel some distance to throw some body off balance????

[Bob Ashmore]

Bamboo Leaf,
Where does it say he threw the disciple who accepted his challenge? From what I see he was able to maintain a consistent level of contact with his opponent using the thread, no more or less. I don't see how the opponent got "thrown" by this method.
Anyway, however you look at it, there was definitely contact in this encounter between the two opponents, through the cotton thread. There is no discrepancy in this tale with what could be done by someone with high skills in listening, sticking, adhering, following. I think we can agree that Yang Cheng Fu had acquired this level of skill.
We all know that listening and following are as much of the mind as the body in that you must be in the moment and holding your own center, and aware of your opponents intentions. Still, there was a form of contact between the opponents even in this tale, the cotton thread connected them.
If you touch your arms with your opponent through the sleeves of your shirts, are you not still touching? The thread is the same as this but with a higher level of listening required.
Can a very, very good player listen, adhere, follow, stick, without touching his opponent? I believe he could, I can't but that doesn't mean someone with the requisite skills couldn't. Could that same high level individual lead someone with not much skill (like me) to an empty place by doing so, causing his opponent to loose his balance and stumble or fall? Surely if he can follow, adhere, stick and listen at this level then he could do this.
However, to "throw" an opponent is a different thing entirely. The word "throw" has a connotation of launching someone through the air instead of merely being offset or lead to an empty space so you stumble or even fall down.
Just my two cents. And what do I know?
There's also the tale, oft told, of Yang Lu Chan walking through muddy streets and getting to his destination with clean shoes. Does this mean levitation is possible with TCC?
Man. I hope so! I'd like to think that I could go for my daily walks when it's raining and come home without muddy shoes if I practice long enough. Cleaning the mud off my shoes is a big drag.
However, I'm not going to hold my breath waiting on it.

Bob

[This message has been edited by Bob Ashmore (edited 10-19-2005).]

[Wu Chang-Chi]

Myth Busters (Discovery Channel, I believe) ran an episode dealing with the "Chi power strike" as they referred to it as. During the show, students were thrown down / around, without being touched, by the instructors chi. Yet, when someone from the program stood there, he couldn't be moved / knocked down / effected in any way without being touched.

What does this tell us? That show is just as valid as the video artyeo provided. Very skilled martial artists can get their bodies to do things that may seem supernatural, but, telekenetic powers? Come on...

I did catch an episode where the Myth Busters tried to debunk the creator of Juko-Kai with a piece of rebar to his throat and failed...so, I guess the debunkers were themselves debunked. But those videos are very difficult to believe. I've seen the same thing in a Yeun Wo Ping film....

I guess it's down to whether or not you believe in it. If you believe that someone's chi can harm you without that person touching you, and have felt it yourself, that's great. If the technique only works on people who believe it works, then it's not a very good technique.

[Louis Swaim]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by JerryKarin:
Yang Zhenji has written an article in which he says that striking or throwing without touching is unknown in traditional Yang Style.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I found the thread where I brought up the Yang Zhenji remarks on this matter:

http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/000020-2.html

Take care,
Louis

[chris]

Sometimes, when you throw someone, you are not forcing them down/up/away; you are giving them a choice between going away, and something more unpleasant: broken arm, smashed face, etc. For this type of throw you do not necessarily need physical contact. In fact, it sometimes works better without contact, because people who have never felt zero-inch power do not perceive the threat implied by a soft touch on the chest/jaw/wherever.

[bamboo leaf]

(Could that same high level individual lead someone with not much skill (like me) to an empty place by doing so, causing his opponent to loose his balance and stumble or fall? Surely if he can follow, adhere, stick and listen at this level then he could do this.)

and what ever else they wanted to do.

Not to defend or explain, my point was and is that the same skill sets are required for both types of skills with one being a higher level then the other nothing more. The question really becomes what is being lead or listened to? Answer this and anyone will understand how it is and can build their own practices around it.

In push hands there are three skill levels, each one determines the style and understanding of the practice.

The lowest level is the one most that I see on line talking about that is feeling the force from the bone. When people talk of alignments and such they are talking of this.

The second level is feeling the force from the muscle, this is where most start to understand change the beginning level of feeling and understanding what is meant by jin.

The third level is feeling the force from the skin, at this point the touch is very light and the ability to change with the other is very good. The idea of yin and yang have fused into one and people can be really thrown back with their own force.

These are the physical levels that most people are working on with. In practice they are the work of yrs of training to understand while at the same time ridding your own body of outer force.

The next levels are where what I would say true internal work starts.

Qi, the ability to feel and extend the qi, it allows one to move before the other like a ghost, and at the same time borrow and lead or push against another’s qi directly.

Yi, the use of the will or mind, it guides the qi and is extended beyond ones own body, like a hawk looking far from above. The mind is no longer in the body but ready to move at the slightest instant.


Shen, actually I cant really talk of this but have felt it used. Your sprit and mind have an idea of an action, one who functions on this level can freeze that action. In so doing so your own body mass, momentum have to have some place to go. This can be shaped by the other so that in essence your following though on actions that might have originated with you but now have been changed and amplified.

Look at any high level master of the Wu style, or even what some other styles do and this aspect can be seen at work if you have been exposed to it before. Otherwise it becomes something that can not really be believed.

http://www.malaysia-taiji.com/articles/ycf-10-points.htm

(Tai Chi trains the spirit. It is said that "the spirit is the leader and the body follows its command". If you can lift your spirit, then your movements will naturally be agile and alive. Postures are nothing more than solid and empty, opening and closing. Opening does not just involve the hands and feet, but they must work in concordance with the opening of the heart/mind. Closing does not just concern the hands and feet, but they should coordinate with the closing of the heart/mind as well. When the internal and external are unified as one harmonious chi, then there are no gaps anywhere.)

the spirit is the leader the body follows, what if one can lead another’s spirit would not there body follow or stop?

My own thoughts are from having met people who can do this nothing more.




[This message has been edited by bamboo leaf (edited 10-19-2005).]

[Bob Ashmore]

Just so we're clear on the subject.


throw (thrô)

v., threw (thrû), thrown (thrôn), throw·ing, throws.

v.tr.
To propel through the air with a motion of the hand or arm.
To discharge into the air by any means: a machine that throws tennis balls; ash that was thrown by an erupting volcano.
To hurl or fling with great force or speed: threw themselves on the food; jetsam that had been thrown up onto the shore.

To force (an opponent) to the ground or floor, as in wrestling or the martial arts.
To cause to fall off: The horse threw its rider.
Informal. To cause confusion or perplexity in; disconcert or nonplus: We didn't let our worries throw us.
To put on or off hastily or carelessly: throw on a jacket.

To put (suddenly or forcefully) into a given condition, position, or activity: threw him into a fit of laughter; threw some supper together; threw her leg over the arm of the chair.
To devote, apply, or direct: threw all their resources into the new endeavor; threw the blame onto the others.
To form on a potter's wheel: throw a vase.
To twist (fibers) into thread.
Games.
To roll (dice).
To roll (a particular combination) with dice.
To discard or play (a card).
To send forth; project: She threw me a look of encouragement.
To cause (one's voice) to seem to come from a source other than oneself.
To cause to fall on or over something; cast: The rising sun threw shadows across the lawn. We threw sheets over the furniture before we painted the ceiling.
To bear (young). Used of cows or horses, for example.
To arrange or give (a party, for example).
To move (a lever or switch) in order to activate, deactivate, or control a device.
Informal. To lose or give up (a contest, for example) purposely.
To abandon oneself to; have: heard the news and threw a fit.
To commit (oneself), especially for leniency or support: threw himself on the mercy of the court.
To deliver (a punch), as in boxing: threw a left hook.
v.intr.
To cast, fling, or hurl something.

n.
The act or an instance of throwing.
The distance to which something is or can be thrown: a stone's throw away.
Games.
A roll or cast of dice.
The combination of numbers so obtained.
Informal. A single chance, venture, or instance: “could afford up to forty-five bucks a throw to wax sentimental over their heritage” (John Simon).
Sports. The act of throwing or a technique used to throw an opponent in wrestling or the martial arts.

A light coverlet, such as an afghan.
A scarf or shawl.

The radius of a circle described by a crank, cam, or similar machine part.
The maximum displacement of a machine part moved by another part, such as a crank or cam.
Geology. The amount of vertical displacement of a fault.

[bamboo leaf]

(He answered that he has never heard of this spoken of within the Yang family, and noted that it is scientifically impossible. He asked rhetorically, “No matter how remarkable someone’s skills or jin may be, how would it be possible for them to issue and throw out another person without contact?” (Yang Zhenji, _Yang Chengfu Shi Taijiquan_, p. 238) H)


but qi is not? Never heard of so this means it can not be?

The receiver and sender idea might have some validity, but the feeling of it does tend to make one feel sick. i think it would damage others if they didnt react to it before they noticed it. in any case its not something done by itself its part of a whole system that is designed around inner aspects.

I would look at like this.
Among high level people there intent is very strong and direct so much so that if not perceived its really to late to do anything else.

Being able to sense such things might enable one to feel and react before hand. It might also go along with the different levels in push hands practice. Think of the time most of us used force from the bones to push with and how each of our practices have changed developing new insights, skills with meeting of different people and more practice. Is it the same as before? Or do most of you feel you are at the highest level of your practice?

I share this: my wife who is Chinese was also very skeptical watching some of the things the teacher did. he turned to me, at the same time she grabbed my waist.

He pulled us both forwards with a back wards motion of his hand with out touching, she was very surprised as she felt as though something was being pulled from her stomach area and she was pulled by that. I felt the same thing, we all laughed.

So while I read such accounts by others such as what was written in the post linked, it does not square with my own experiences and perceptions which I am still forming at this time. Many CMA from other arts have visited him and stay after feeling this type of skill. He prefers to remain quiet about it at 86 he has nothing to prove and continues with his own practice in china.


I share this not as proof but only to give some insights for some of my own thoughts posted. Its this point that I am speaking from.


[This message has been edited by bamboo leaf (edited 10-19-2005).]

[bamboo leaf]

(To cause to fall on or over something)

yep this one works, question might be what is that somthing

its been a good disscussion with some good insights and much sharing with out ranker or insults. much thanks to all


david

[JerryKarin]

In the Lushi Chunqiu Chapter 1 section 3 it says:

"Chui (a famous craftsman) was supremely skillful. People don't care about Chui's fingers but they care about their own. This is because having them is beneficial to them. People don't care about the jade of the Kunlun mountains or the pearls of the Yangtze or Han rivers, yet they care about their own baubles and trinkets. It's because these are beneficial to them."

[This message has been edited by JerryKarin (edited 10-19-2005).]

[Fred Hao]

Watch! the guy was thrown out of the chair by the master with the remote control. However, the chair is not influences to move a little bit. Why ? It's because the chair has no mind and Yi sense, If he wants to throw the chair, the master should use his touching power or Jing. But man has mind and yi sense. Speaking of the mind and yi sense, Taichi Boxing has it. Once the master's mind and Yi sence can influence the receiver, the receiver will get the shock, his mind and yi sense will give an order to himself: backward, off the chair and rock and roll,etc. Not considering jin and qi, the Master purely use his mind and yi to remote the reciever, not necessarily like a magician, but like TV remote comtrol.
Once the signal goes through the open air and connect the receiver, Then the receiver begin to jump off. Who knows! After all, we are now playing qi and Jing with our mind,and yi sense. Once, no qi, no jing, what is so called pure yi and mind?

Fred Hao

[tccstudent]

Speaking of Yang Zhenji... and I mean this with no malice at all, but is it possible that Yang Zhenji was trained from outside sources? Could it be possible that different Yang family members (sons of YCF) had different instruction with different focuses? Some may have had more energy work than others, just a thought.

[This message has been edited by tccstudent (edited 10-20-2005).]

[Louis Swaim]

Greetings tcc,

Yang Zhenji studied Taijiquan with his father, Yang Chengfu. He also studied with his uncle, Zhaopeng, son of Yang Banhou, and with his older brother, Shouzhong. His remarks about the requirement of contact with an opponent are completely in accord with traditional Yang family teachings.

Take care,
Louis



[This message has been edited by Louis Swaim (edited 10-20-2005).]

[Louis Swaim]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by JerryKarin:
[B]In the Lushi Chunqiu Chapter 1 section 3 it says:

"Chui (a famous craftsman) was supremely skillful. People don't care about Chui's fingers but they care about their own. This is because having them is beneficial to them. People don't care about the jade of the Kunlun mountains or the pearls of the Yangtze or Han rivers, yet they care about their own baubles and trinkets. It's because these are beneficial to them."

[B]</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Greetings Jerry,

I like the Lushi chunqiu passage. I agree. As much as we may emulate extraordinary (and perhaps legendary) skills, we need to remain focused upon our own immediate grasp of the fundamentals. I’m reminded of a passage in the Mencius, where someone remarks to Mengzi that his teachings are perhaps too recondite; that he should simplify and make them more accessible. Mengzi’s response is a superb case of argumentative redirection. He uses analogies of carpentry and archery skills, saying that a master carpenter would not ignore teaching his students the fundamental skills of using a plumb line. A master archer “draws the bow, but does not shoot” (yin er bu fa), and yet thereby conveys the requisite skill to the attentive student. That is, a teacher can show a student the proper stance, alignment, and “how to draw a bow,” but when it comes to perfecting the skill of hitting the target, that is up to the student.

Take care,
Louis




[This message has been edited by Louis Swaim (edited 10-20-2005).]