Yang Fast Form

Yang Fast Form

Postby JohnK » Thu Feb 01, 2001 3:53 am

I have seen it written that the Ynag Family has taught a Fast form, is there such a thing being taught today?
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Postby Steve » Tue Feb 06, 2001 10:45 pm

I've only seen it in videos from Yongnian. I can't even say whether it was the "real" form.
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Postby vajrab » Tue Feb 13, 2001 1:39 am

There is no such Fast Form in Yang style. It was an innovation of other students who studied a Yang form. Perhaps there are some who may know the true story on who was the actual inventor of the fast form. Was it Tung Yingchieh?
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Postby DavidJ » Fri Feb 16, 2001 6:50 pm

I was told that Tung Ying Chieh developed the fast set, based on the long form, that is still taught by the Tung (Dong) family. In addition that are "Tung Family" sets which combine slow and fast Tai Chi. These sets are often done with 'fa jing.'

I was also told that Yang Chen Fu did fast Tai Chi.

While the Tung 'fast set' is different, in some particulars, from the long form, some people simply do the long form fast.

Slow and fast compliment one another. You may go slower and slower, but not so slow that you lose the flow.

You may go faster and faster, but not so fast that you lose the correct form and structure.

Also, in moving more quickly, remember that Yang style is 'large frame.'

To accomodate moving faster, the form should tend toward a smaller frame. If you've ever seen an ice skater spin, the arms are brought in to increase the speed of the spin. The same applies to Tai Chi.

David
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Postby Necromander » Sat Mar 16, 2002 2:42 am

Interesting thought, Although I am kind of impatient when I practice the moves and I tend to go fast or "Matrix Fast" but I have learned that if you want to experience Tai Chi to the max, it's better to go slow. :-D
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Postby ELDER » Sat Mar 16, 2002 10:09 pm

I do the fast and slow forms just for TC training. I used to perform the long form in 40 minutes in the normal speed.

The slow beat trains the energy flow, so you can see the movements happening without muscular work, it's amazing ! (each movement lasting around 1 minute)

I use the fast beat to train the form application. (the long form in 10 minutes). It is not in speed of real combat but more close to it !

I totally agree with DaviD observations below:

"You may go slower and slower, but not so slow that you lose the flow. You may go faster and faster, but not so fast that you lose the correct form and structure."
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Postby Joe P » Sun Mar 17, 2002 3:59 am

I could of been misinformed but I have been told of taiji being taught fast or faster then we have been taught until Yang Cheng Fu slowed the form down because of health benefits.
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Postby Audi » Sun Mar 24, 2002 6:26 pm

Hi Joe (and others),

Yours is an interesting tidbit. I cannot confirm or deny your report, but wanted to add that there is much discussion in the literature about Taijiquan being taught much differently than it is customarily taught today. For instance, some talk about spending a year learning only stances or only static postures, practicing for many hours on a daily basis. Clearly in such a context and with such a foundation, the speed of the form could well have varied substantially from what we do today.

Even if one is talking of martial Taijiquan, I think it is worthwhile to distinguish modern practice from what appears to have been common in 19th century China. The Taijiquan of someone in their teens or twenties who worked all day doing heavy manual labor and then spent three or four hours practicing would be different from the Taijiquan of your average city dweller practing for half an hour a day. I would also distinguish the Taijiquan of someone training to fight highway bandits or marauding rebels from the Taijiquan of someone training to fight off a mugger on a side street or an unruly bar patron.

One other comment is that, at least to my eye, many of the main styles of Taijiquan seem to have different ideas about customary rhythm and tempo. This would seem to fit the view that there is more than one way to skin a cat, but that different practices fit differently with other methods and different purposes.

Take care,
Audi
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Postby charlie » Sat Mar 30, 2002 12:34 am

You say that there is no Yang fast form, yet in all the Yang family histories there are stoires of many masters practicing fast sets.
Yang Shao Hu in particular. It is also clearly stated that in his younger days Yang Cheng Fu had fast movements in his form, before he modified it.
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Postby JerryKarin » Sat Mar 30, 2002 6:39 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by charlie:
<B>You say that there is no Yang fast form, yet in all the Yang family histories there are stoires of many masters practicing fast sets.
Yang Shao Hu in particular. It is also clearly stated that in his younger days Yang Cheng Fu had fast movements in his form, before he modified it.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Please state your source(s). What do you mean by Yang family histories?
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Postby charlie » Sat Mar 30, 2002 10:10 pm

Fu Zhongwen in "Mastering Yang Style Taijiquan: "when Chengfu first perforemd his art in Shanghai..he retained the method of rapid kicks...other boxing methods were also transformed to a continuous pace and from a hurried to an even pace"
"Shaohu..a high frame with lively steps, alternating between fast and slow, hard and crips fajin with sudden shouts, eyes glaring.."
Also see Yang Style Taijiquan by Yang Zhenduo and, from what I remember, Tai Chi Touchstones.
Reference also the fast form as taught by Gin Soon Chu learnt from Yang Sau Cheung and the Yang small frame form as taught by Cui Yushi (Yang Cheng Fu student).
I'm sure there are other examples too.
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Postby JerryKarin » Sun Mar 31, 2002 2:20 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by charlie:
<B>Fu Zhongwen in "Mastering Yang Style Taijiquan: "when Chengfu first perforemd his art in Shanghai..he retained the method of rapid kicks...other boxing methods were also transformed to a continuous pace and from a hurried to an even pace"
"Shaohu..a high frame with lively steps, alternating between fast and slow, hard and crips fajin with sudden shouts, eyes glaring.."
Also see Yang Style Taijiquan by Yang Zhenduo and, from what I remember, Tai Chi Touchstones.
Reference also the fast form as taught by Gin Soon Chu learnt from Yang Sau Cheung and the Yang small frame form as taught by Cui Yushi (Yang Cheng Fu student).
I'm sure there are other examples too.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The quote is from Gu Liuxin's introduction to Fu Zhongwen's book. It suggests fast movements but says nothing about a fast form, ie a way of doing something like the 103 form but fast throughout, which Yang Jun has told us they did not have. Louis rendered sudu qu yu junyun as 'from a hurried to an even pace'. Louis is a good translator but he has missed it here. Better would be 'the speed tended toward a more even pace'. qu1 here means 'tendency' rather than 'hurry' as Louis took it. My little xinhua pocket dictionary has the example yijian qu yu yi zhi 'Opinions tended to converge', using this exact same qu yu syntax.

I am told Gin Soon Chu teaches a fast form. I do not know the lineage of that though I wonder if it isn't the same fast set taught by the Tong family. The Tongs were also based in Hong Kong at one time weren't they? Given that Yang Jun has told us the Yang family itself only had fast practice of short sequences, rather than a form, this seems likely.

You mention "Yang small frame form as taught by Cui Yushi (Yang Cheng Fu student)." What can you tell us about it?


[This message has been edited by JerryKarin (edited 03-30-2002).]

[This message has been edited by JerryKarin (edited 03-30-2002).]
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Postby charlie » Sun Mar 31, 2002 11:35 am

The form taught in Boston is not the same as the Tung form. It was taught by Yang Sau Cheung, from Cheng Fu. YSC's daughter also teaches this set.
The small frame form is similar to the old Hao form (which it is claimed is from Luchan). It has "active" steps and is performed quickly throughout.
No offense to Yang Jun but there are Yang fast forms.

[This message has been edited by charlie (edited 03-31-2002).]
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Postby JerryKarin » Sun Mar 31, 2002 8:47 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by charlie:
<B>The form taught in Boston is not the same as the Tung form. It was taught by Yang Sau Cheung, from Cheng Fu. YSC's daughter also teaches this set.
The small frame form is similar to the old Hao form (which it is claimed is from Luchan). It has "active" steps and is performed quickly throughout.
No offense to Yang Jun but there are Yang fast forms.

[This message has been edited by charlie (edited 03-31-2002).]</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, tell us about these forms then. How many moves in Gin Soon Chu's fast form? How many in the Dong family fast form? Do you have a list of the moves or any documentation of any of these? Which do you know personally?
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Postby charlie » Sun Mar 31, 2002 10:02 pm

There is an article about the Yang family chung chaun / fast form at http://www.gstaichi.org/articles.html
and further information elsewhere on the site.

I know it is not the same as the Tung from as I have seen both and learnt one.

Why so confrontational? Do you really believe there is only one form in Yang family style? Despite all the evidence to the contrary?
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