Push Hands: Should we do it?

Postby taiji-jim » Fri May 29, 2009 9:00 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by shugdenla:
<B> Bob,
Try more neigong type routine as in
a. Raising and lowering hands (front)
b. raising and lowering hands (sides)
More breathing (diaphragm) and do for about 10-15 miinutes.
Stand in wuji for about 5 minutes and do shougong. This is essence of yangsengong.
As you see doing taolu when not is good health taxes the system more!

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
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Postby taiji-jim » Fri May 29, 2009 9:08 pm

Yes, Bob I'm definitely planning on some Tui Shou in the morning. I'll have to do 3 or so more long forms after the birthday cake, too. It's good to see somebody else telling you the same things I've said about practicing after you've got a full-blown cold, bronchitis, etc. Not that you listen to them, either; but...

Back to the topic, if everybody makes it to the symposium, maybe we'll get to put faces to the names, talk/practice a little pushing hands face-to-face rather than through the ether (just don't expect much skill from me), and talk each others ears off about theory and such.
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Postby Bob Ashmore » Fri May 29, 2009 9:29 pm

There's a Symposium?
I had no idea!
;o)~
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Postby taiji-jim » Sun Jun 07, 2009 2:43 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Bob Ashmore:
<B>There's a Symposium?
I had no idea!
;o)~ </B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's going to be a looooooooooooooooooooooong week rooming with you at the symposium, Bro.
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Postby Audi » Tue Jun 16, 2009 11:36 pm

Greetings to all,

Fumin, thanks again for some interesting video clips. I admire the amount of versatility you can show with what seems like a very simple circling pattern. By the way, most of your clips seem to show only this base pattern. Do you practice others? Or do you simply work on finding techniques from the same overall pattern?

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Yes, Audi, I know (yet STILL practice regularly with) Bob. He's been after me for years to get on here and start reading/posting.</font>


Taiji-Jim, hurray for Bob's persistence, and welcome to the forum!

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">On some levels I'd be tempted to say I enjoy push hands more than form; but that's mostly because most of mr previous teachers left town just as we were getting to it and I don't do enough of it yet for it to be automatic yet.</font>


I think I enjoy the form more than push hands in a physical sense. I often find that doing form is simply a ... luscious experience. Like getting a full body massage. I find push hands, however, to be more fun and more challenging.

I sometimes smile when I am doing the form, but probably not that often. I frequently laugh doing push hands, because of all the surprising results.

Imagine: I am practicing Ward Off applications and counters with a partner. I reach forward just at the right time to start the Ward Off throw and dismiss my partner's inability to prevent me from penetrating his guard. I feel the power surging and gauge how much to control it to make sure that I do not send him sailing behind me into the wall, or worse yet, into that nice widescreen TV in the corner. Just as the tension builds and I am about to issue a devastating throw, I feel his palm gently resting on my back, and everything changes. I am now a deer stuck in the headlights, a bug with a pin in my back. My surging flowing power turns to complete double weight and brain freeze. Instead of tossing my partner backward, I fly awkwardly forward and break out laughing. The tension has to go somewhere as I ponder again how a gentle palm placement can change so much with so little. Soft conquers hard. Stillness defeats movement.

I also like push hands because of the intellectual challenge. I think I have learned seven or eight different counters to that same Ward Off application. While it is fun to practice these, I find it even more interesting to explore why the counters work. They seem to fall into three or four different family of principles that also apply to other applications. 4 principles X 8 energies yields a bunch of interesting combinations, even before we get into variations and counters to counters.

Take care,
Audi
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Postby mlot » Wed Jun 17, 2009 11:58 am

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">The eye-brain command and control link for the human body is remarkably slow. Yet the majority of martial arts systems encountered today focus solely on developing and training defensive and offensive tools controlled completely by eye-brain coordination. A quick look at today’s evolving science of haptics can highlight the problem. Computer scientists have studied eye-brain dominance vice touch dominance at great length. It is common knowledge that 30 flashing pictures per second can fool the eye-brain into believing that 30 static pictures represent true human motion in 3 dimensional real-time. In the development of force feedback joystick controllers for computer games they discovered that 1500 pulses per second were required to give the sense of human touch an approximate feeling of reality. In the development of military combat simulators, 15,000 pulses per second are actually required to deceive the sense of touch into believing that a simulation is reality. In essence, the sense of touch is overwhelmingly faster than the eye-brain at responding to outside energies and influences.</font>
- Ref. "Seven Military Science Criteria for Developing a Survivable Hand to Hand Combat System" Authors: Garrett Gee, Benny Meng and Richard Loewenhagen

In this sense, then push hands practice develops "sense of touch" which is important for martial application.

[This message has been edited by mlot (edited June 17, 2009).]
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Postby fumin » Wed Jun 17, 2009 12:19 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Audi:
<B>Greetings to all,

Fumin, thanks again for some interesting video clips. I admire the amount of versatility you can show with what seems like a very simple circling pattern. By the way, most of your clips seem to show only this base pattern. Do you practice others? Or do you simply work on finding techniques from the same overall pattern?

I think I enjoy the form more than push hands in a physical sense. I often find that doing form is simply a ... luscious experience. Like getting a full body massage. I find push hands, however, to be more fun and more challenging.

I sometimes smile when I am doing the form, but probably not that often. I frequently laugh doing push hands, because of all the surprising results.

Imagine: I am practicing Ward Off applications and counters with a partner. I reach forward just at the right time to start the Ward Off throw and dismiss my partner's inability to prevent me from penetrating his guard. I feel the power surging and gauge how much to control it to make sure that I do not send him sailing behind me into the wall, or worse yet, into that nice widescreen TV in the corner. Just as the tension builds and I am about to issue a devastating throw, I feel his palm gently resting on my back, and everything changes. I am now a deer stuck in the headlights, a bug with a pin in my back. My surging flowing power turns to complete double weight and brain freeze. Instead of tossing my partner backward, I fly awkwardly forward and break out laughing. The tension has to go somewhere as I ponder again how a gentle palm placement can change so much with so little. Soft conquers hard. Stillness defeats movement.

I also like push hands because of the intellectual challenge. I think I have learned seven or eight different counters to that same Ward Off application. While it is fun to practice these, I find it even more interesting to explore why the counters work. They seem to fall into three or four different family of principles that also apply to other applications. 4 principles X 8 energies yields a bunch of interesting combinations, even before we get into variations and counters to counters.

Take care,
Audi</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Audi,

Thanks for your response.
Just like you say that I like to find techniques and carry out the classic taichi
Principles through basic simple and overall patterns.

Maybe at some other time, I'll put on some clips to show how taichi can fight, but they are only instant moves once the opponent role attacks quickly.

However, this teacher influenced me a lot.
http://www.5willowstaichi.tw/

Fumin

[This message has been edited by fumin (edited June 17, 2009).]
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Postby Bob Ashmore » Wed Jun 17, 2009 8:00 pm

Fumin,
I can't read 99% of the site, but I did enjoy the "english version" translations of the interviews and articles by William C.C. Chen.
I've always thought he made a lot of sense, now reading this interview I see that I was correct.
Thanks.
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Postby fumin » Thu Jun 18, 2009 6:35 am

Bob,you are welcome.

I learn a lot of Taichi English from you and Audi.
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Postby taiji-jim » Sun Jun 21, 2009 3:24 pm

I have a feeling that pushing with you will mostly be picking myself up off the floor. Image)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Audi:
<B>Greetings to all,

Fumin, thanks again for some interesting video clips. I admire the amount of versatility you can show with what seems like a very simple circling pattern. By the way, most of your clips seem to show only this base pattern. Do you practice others? Or do you simply work on finding techniques from the same overall pattern?

I think I enjoy the form more than push hands in a physical sense. I often find that doing form is simply a ... luscious experience. Like getting a full body massage. I find push hands, however, to be more fun and more challenging.

I sometimes smile when I am doing the form, but probably not that often. I frequently laugh doing push hands, because of all the surprising results.

Imagine: I am practicing Ward Off applications and counters with a partner. I reach forward just at the right time to start the Ward Off throw and dismiss my partner's inability to prevent me from penetrating his guard. I feel the power surging and gauge how much to control it to make sure that I do not send him sailing behind me into the wall, or worse yet, into that nice widescreen TV in the corner. Just as the tension builds and I am about to issue a devastating throw, I feel his palm gently resting on my back, and everything changes. I am now a deer stuck in the headlights, a bug with a pin in my back. My surging flowing power turns to complete double weight and brain freeze. Instead of tossing my partner backward, I fly awkwardly forward and break out laughing. The tension has to go somewhere as I ponder again how a gentle palm placement can change so much with so little. Soft conquers hard. Stillness defeats movement.

I also like push hands because of the intellectual challenge. I think I have learned seven or eight different counters to that same Ward Off application. While it is fun to practice these, I find it even more interesting to explore why the counters work. They seem to fall into three or four different family of principles that also apply to other applications. 4 principles X 8 energies yields a bunch of interesting combinations, even before we get into variations and counters to counters.

Take care,
Audi</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
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Postby Bob Ashmore » Tue Jun 23, 2009 8:04 pm

Jim,
Pushing with ME means a lot of picking yourself up off the floor.
One of these days I'll learn to hold my center though and then we won't fall over every time you push...
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Re: Push Hands: Should we do it?

Postby Audi » Fri Feb 26, 2010 12:19 am

Greetings all,

Stand in wuji for about 5 minutes and do shougong. This is essence of yangsengong.
As you see doing taolu when not is good health taxes the system more!

Shugdenla,

Could you explain what you mean by shougong? I am not familiar with that term.

Also, could you explain more why you think doing form/taolu is not a good idea when a person is sick? I have heard some people say this, but I have also heard of people who say that doing form has cured them of illness. Perhaps it is a difference between acute and chronic illness.

Regards,
Audi
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Re: Push Hands: Should we do it?

Postby YellowStar » Fri Feb 26, 2010 8:17 pm

It is my pleasure to be a part of the internal art community (three whole days) w/this forum! I am fortunate
to have experienced several styles of self-defense and one prevailing on-going sense of discipline, honed by
pain and confusion and the ever-present struggle to remain bouyant in the throes of failure. Still the question
remains; so what? That is precisely what keeps me going! Enuff 'bout my humble butt............Push Hands!
I have had to search out and experiment w/other supplemental team training tools because of gout in both
thumbs where an ordinary "bump" can be very painful. I find "sticking" movements a great way to fine tune
the softer approach, however, in my external experience, where there is adrenaline and follow through
the pain factor does not immediately slow me as much as the mixed intent of push-hands! Some days are
better than others, but my AsperCreme days have been replaced by cortisone from time to time. I will say
that in very early internal practice, push-hands would be mixed into first style qigong/taiji if only for the
benefit of theory and as an option for those who may want a more "complete" talk the walk advantage.
In earlier generational styles, I would stress push-hands more than a merely supplemental choice.
In my youth, I was impressed upon by my Japanese friends to take part in their morning "Lu". It kept
them sharp. But, the burning question remains, "what would Bruce Lee say?" Probably stressing the
"circle without circumference" as he did in his tao?
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Re: Push Hands: Should we do it?

Postby YellowStar » Fri Feb 26, 2010 8:28 pm

To all...........don't mean to bogart the whole idea. I ain't no shaman sitting around a fire
contemplating my appendix, but when I stick my thinker in it the barn biscuits come easy.
Oss.
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Re: Push Hands: Should we do it?

Postby TaiChiRN » Fri Sep 17, 2010 10:55 am

I'm speaking as a total newbie (4 months of study) here, but Push Hands had made every part of my forms practice better. Push Hands reveals the true meaning behind the forms - why I'm learning what I'm learning. For example, this week classes have really focused on Splitting energy, and I got a kick out of realizing that the transition from Grasp Sparrow's Tail to the beginning of Single Whip can be a split, turning into a pluck, etc. Its those moments where everything clicks into place that makes Push Hands valuable to me. Plus, since I'm still mostly getting pushed at this point, I have really been forced to work on developing a root (standing meditation is great!) and proper footwork/form.
Without Push Hands, I think I might have well just learned to swing dance or something rather than Tai Chi.
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