I'd like to know if anyone here practice Hai Di Zhen in Yang form as in the "semplified 24 routine". I know this posture comes after different ones in Yang Traditional and 24 so my interest is only in the posture not in any transition. Did you lower the hittig hand before lowering the body to the end position or just recover it and then strike down?
I ask this cause i see so many school practicing in a way different from mine.
Best Regards
Gianluca
Hai Di Zhen in YCF form
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Hai Di Zhen in YCF form
by Gianluca Meassi » Sat Feb 22, 2003 9:20 pm
- Gianluca Meassi
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by Audi » Tue Mar 04, 2003 4:40 am
Hi Gianluca:
I am not sure what you are describing, and so I am not sure I can provide a useful response. Could you try describing it in another way or with a fuller description?
It has been quite a while since I have seen someone do the 24-Movement Form and my memory may be faulty. The differences I recall are as follows:
In the 24-Movement Form, it seemed that there was no lean in the posture; whereas there is a slight, but distinct lean in the traditional Yang Style posture.
It also seemed that the weight distribution in the feet was 0/100%, rather than 30/70%.
It seemed that the power in the posture was generated by sinking the weight and extending the arm, whereas the power in traditional Yang Style is generated more by the back leg pushing against the propping action of the front leg, in the same way as in the other postures.
It seemed that the head remained absolutely level and was not in agreement with the eye gaze, rather than tilting somewhat downward and allowing the eyes to look naturally in the direction of the strike.
In traditional Yang Style, I believe that the final extension of the right arm is coordinated with the power generated by the right leg and the slight turning of the waist.
Does this answer your question?
Take care,
Audi
I am not sure what you are describing, and so I am not sure I can provide a useful response. Could you try describing it in another way or with a fuller description?
It has been quite a while since I have seen someone do the 24-Movement Form and my memory may be faulty. The differences I recall are as follows:
In the 24-Movement Form, it seemed that there was no lean in the posture; whereas there is a slight, but distinct lean in the traditional Yang Style posture.
It also seemed that the weight distribution in the feet was 0/100%, rather than 30/70%.
It seemed that the power in the posture was generated by sinking the weight and extending the arm, whereas the power in traditional Yang Style is generated more by the back leg pushing against the propping action of the front leg, in the same way as in the other postures.
It seemed that the head remained absolutely level and was not in agreement with the eye gaze, rather than tilting somewhat downward and allowing the eyes to look naturally in the direction of the strike.
In traditional Yang Style, I believe that the final extension of the right arm is coordinated with the power generated by the right leg and the slight turning of the waist.
Does this answer your question?
Take care,
Audi
- Audi
- Posts: 1052
- Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 7:01 am
- Location: New Jersey, USA
by JerryKarin » Wed Mar 05, 2003 6:41 am
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Audi:
<B>
.....
It seemed that the power in the posture was generated by sinking the weight and extending the arm, whereas the power in traditional Yang Style is generated more by the back leg pushing against the propping action of the front leg, in the same way as in the other postures.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think I disagree with the idea that power in traditional Yang Style is generated by the back leg pushing against the propping action of the front leg. While this is a necessary condition or environment for the issuing of power, the power does not come from a small subset of body muscles, ie the legs. It comes from most of the muscles and sinews of the body working together as a whole under the guidance of the waist and within the framework set up by the opposition of the legs. My point here is mainly one of emphasis, but I think it is a blind alley to practice with the assumption and the intent that the big power is coming mainly from the legs.
<B>
.....
It seemed that the power in the posture was generated by sinking the weight and extending the arm, whereas the power in traditional Yang Style is generated more by the back leg pushing against the propping action of the front leg, in the same way as in the other postures.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think I disagree with the idea that power in traditional Yang Style is generated by the back leg pushing against the propping action of the front leg. While this is a necessary condition or environment for the issuing of power, the power does not come from a small subset of body muscles, ie the legs. It comes from most of the muscles and sinews of the body working together as a whole under the guidance of the waist and within the framework set up by the opposition of the legs. My point here is mainly one of emphasis, but I think it is a blind alley to practice with the assumption and the intent that the big power is coming mainly from the legs.
- JerryKarin
- Posts: 1067
- Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 7:01 am
by Gianluca Meassi » Thu Mar 06, 2003 5:05 pm
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Audi:
<B>Hi Gianluca:
I am not sure what you are describing, and so I am not sure I can provide a useful response. Could you try describing it in another way or with a fuller description?
Audi</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
My intereset is focused on the movement of the striking hand/arm. In the 24-form the arm lower down for a lu after the yu nu chuan suo and then lift up to strike in a obv. circular movement. In Mastering Yang Style, Fu Zhongwen describe it as after the lou xi ao bu the hand retract a little and then strike down. But in a Italian stage of 1992-93 he show it (i see on a VHS) as the 24 form. I Describe. After the lou xi ao bu the hand go down in a circular movement till the right hip. At the same time he made the half step and pass the weight behind to the rigtt leg. Before all the weight has passed to the right leg the right hand lift up at the height of chest, on the right/front side, still moving in circular fashion like completing half a circle. Now the movement of the right arm go on like the 24-form routine.
I think is not something really important and i do not made special attention to this movemente untill i see the difference in the Fu's Book.
Audi: IMHO I do not see weight difference between 24 and YCF form in hai di zhen.
Gianluca
<B>Hi Gianluca:
I am not sure what you are describing, and so I am not sure I can provide a useful response. Could you try describing it in another way or with a fuller description?
Audi</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
My intereset is focused on the movement of the striking hand/arm. In the 24-form the arm lower down for a lu after the yu nu chuan suo and then lift up to strike in a obv. circular movement. In Mastering Yang Style, Fu Zhongwen describe it as after the lou xi ao bu the hand retract a little and then strike down. But in a Italian stage of 1992-93 he show it (i see on a VHS) as the 24 form. I Describe. After the lou xi ao bu the hand go down in a circular movement till the right hip. At the same time he made the half step and pass the weight behind to the rigtt leg. Before all the weight has passed to the right leg the right hand lift up at the height of chest, on the right/front side, still moving in circular fashion like completing half a circle. Now the movement of the right arm go on like the 24-form routine.
I think is not something really important and i do not made special attention to this movemente untill i see the difference in the Fu's Book.
Audi: IMHO I do not see weight difference between 24 and YCF form in hai di zhen.
Gianluca
- Gianluca Meassi
- Posts: 25
- Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 7:01 am
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by Audi » Wed Mar 26, 2003 4:57 am
Hi Gianluca and Jerry:
Gianluca, I have to say that I am not familiar with the type of movement you describe for the striking arm. Although I think there are some subtle circles involved with the movement of the right hand, I would describe the overall thrust of the movement in the way Fu Zhongwen apparently described it.
Jerry, I may have overstated my case somewhat about what the legs do, but I have found that talking about such things as “whole-body” power means different things to different people. As I understand it, the source of the power in the Yang-style moves comes primarily from the muscles in the legs and the muscles that tend to control or at least move with the waist. In saying this, I do not mean that the other muscles should not be involved, but rather that if one must get something right to generate power, it must be the movement of the legs and waist.
I may be digging myself in deeper, but I have occasionally had discussions with friends about how I understand the generation of power in Yang Style to be different from what I have seen in hard styles. To demonstrate this, I have asked friends to assume positions where it is not possible to punch using the Karate techniques I was taught, but where one can punch with great force using Taiji techniques, for instance, starting with one’s fist or palm already in contact with the “target.” The difference is in the use of the legs. In saying this, let me clarify that I do not think this necessarily demonstrates either good Taiji tactics or good examples of any of the form postures, but simply how power can truly travel through the body to the hands and why locally freezing or flexing the muscles in the arms can be so devastating to threading power through the body.
I stressed this particular issue in connection with Needle at Sea Bottom, because I have seen many people do this posture with a mind set that seems to see “yielding to gravity” and sinking as the sole requirement of the posture. In some cases, the practitioners sink with a spine that is ramrod straight. In others, they seem to perform what looks almost like a bow from the waist. When I last saw Yang Jun do this posture, the curve of his head, back, and back leg reminded me of a satellite dish focused diagonally forward, while his line of sight, his striking arm, and his front leg resembled struts or structural elements that linked him to his point of focus.
Take care,
Audi
Gianluca, I have to say that I am not familiar with the type of movement you describe for the striking arm. Although I think there are some subtle circles involved with the movement of the right hand, I would describe the overall thrust of the movement in the way Fu Zhongwen apparently described it.
Jerry, I may have overstated my case somewhat about what the legs do, but I have found that talking about such things as “whole-body” power means different things to different people. As I understand it, the source of the power in the Yang-style moves comes primarily from the muscles in the legs and the muscles that tend to control or at least move with the waist. In saying this, I do not mean that the other muscles should not be involved, but rather that if one must get something right to generate power, it must be the movement of the legs and waist.
I may be digging myself in deeper, but I have occasionally had discussions with friends about how I understand the generation of power in Yang Style to be different from what I have seen in hard styles. To demonstrate this, I have asked friends to assume positions where it is not possible to punch using the Karate techniques I was taught, but where one can punch with great force using Taiji techniques, for instance, starting with one’s fist or palm already in contact with the “target.” The difference is in the use of the legs. In saying this, let me clarify that I do not think this necessarily demonstrates either good Taiji tactics or good examples of any of the form postures, but simply how power can truly travel through the body to the hands and why locally freezing or flexing the muscles in the arms can be so devastating to threading power through the body.
I stressed this particular issue in connection with Needle at Sea Bottom, because I have seen many people do this posture with a mind set that seems to see “yielding to gravity” and sinking as the sole requirement of the posture. In some cases, the practitioners sink with a spine that is ramrod straight. In others, they seem to perform what looks almost like a bow from the waist. When I last saw Yang Jun do this posture, the curve of his head, back, and back leg reminded me of a satellite dish focused diagonally forward, while his line of sight, his striking arm, and his front leg resembled struts or structural elements that linked him to his point of focus.
Take care,
Audi
- Audi
- Posts: 1052
- Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 7:01 am
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by Gianluca Meassi » Wed Mar 26, 2003 1:20 pm
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Audi:
<B>Hi Gianluca and Jerry:
Gianluca, I have to say that I am not familiar with the type of movement you describe for the striking arm. Although I think there are some subtle circles involved with the movement of the right hand, I would describe the overall thrust of the movement in the way Fu Zhongwen apparently described it.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes as I do. But i've seen him, on a VHS of a italian stage, doing it like the 24 form. With a big circle from the lou xi ao bu posture, going from the heigh of the shoulder to the height of the hip, and then again to the height of the shoulder. Looking from the left side is a ccw movement.In the book translated by Louis the hand go in a straight way. I do it in that way.
I don't want to focus the discussion on the movement itself, but in why FuZhongWen change it. Yes, it is nearly impossible to know it but trying to understand why this changes occurs (like all the changes made by Yang Cheng Fu to the traditional form) is important for me. Sometimes this happen for natural reason (memory, postures, age, illness, ecc.) sometimes for a rational process. Obv. i'm interested in the second case.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>I stressed this particular issue in connection with Needle at Sea Bottom, because I have seen many people do this posture with a mind set that seems to see “yielding to gravity” and sinking as the sole requirement of the posture. In some cases, the practitioners sink with a spine that is ramrod straight. In others, they seem to perform what looks almost like a bow from the waist. When I last saw Yang Jun do this posture, the curve of his head, back, and back leg reminded me of a satellite dish focused diagonally forward, while his line of sight, his striking arm, and his front leg resembled struts or structural elements that linked him to his point of focus.
Take care,
Audi</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes Audi. Back follow the principles. I think that in this posture the cervical and lumbar zones seems bending as effect of the extension (as the YCF principles states) in that posture. Dropping the body, or as you say yielding to gravity, as the only requirement for this posture is a mistake. In another post there was s "song"/"peng jing" discussion. where one say that these are like the 2 faces of a coin (don't know the idiomatic phrase). Yes we have to relax, but this is only the beginning. In each posture we need to mantain the right posture and follow the principles. So like the back, the hitting hand, the legs, the left arm must have "peng jing".
Hope i've understanded what you have said, as you see my english is very poor.
Regards
Gianluca
<B>Hi Gianluca and Jerry:
Gianluca, I have to say that I am not familiar with the type of movement you describe for the striking arm. Although I think there are some subtle circles involved with the movement of the right hand, I would describe the overall thrust of the movement in the way Fu Zhongwen apparently described it.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes as I do. But i've seen him, on a VHS of a italian stage, doing it like the 24 form. With a big circle from the lou xi ao bu posture, going from the heigh of the shoulder to the height of the hip, and then again to the height of the shoulder. Looking from the left side is a ccw movement.In the book translated by Louis the hand go in a straight way. I do it in that way.
I don't want to focus the discussion on the movement itself, but in why FuZhongWen change it. Yes, it is nearly impossible to know it but trying to understand why this changes occurs (like all the changes made by Yang Cheng Fu to the traditional form) is important for me. Sometimes this happen for natural reason (memory, postures, age, illness, ecc.) sometimes for a rational process. Obv. i'm interested in the second case.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>I stressed this particular issue in connection with Needle at Sea Bottom, because I have seen many people do this posture with a mind set that seems to see “yielding to gravity” and sinking as the sole requirement of the posture. In some cases, the practitioners sink with a spine that is ramrod straight. In others, they seem to perform what looks almost like a bow from the waist. When I last saw Yang Jun do this posture, the curve of his head, back, and back leg reminded me of a satellite dish focused diagonally forward, while his line of sight, his striking arm, and his front leg resembled struts or structural elements that linked him to his point of focus.
Take care,
Audi</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes Audi. Back follow the principles. I think that in this posture the cervical and lumbar zones seems bending as effect of the extension (as the YCF principles states) in that posture. Dropping the body, or as you say yielding to gravity, as the only requirement for this posture is a mistake. In another post there was s "song"/"peng jing" discussion. where one say that these are like the 2 faces of a coin (don't know the idiomatic phrase). Yes we have to relax, but this is only the beginning. In each posture we need to mantain the right posture and follow the principles. So like the back, the hitting hand, the legs, the left arm must have "peng jing".
Hope i've understanded what you have said, as you see my english is very poor.
Regards
Gianluca
- Gianluca Meassi
- Posts: 25
- Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 7:01 am
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