Taichi and drugs

Taichi and drugs

Postby tsopip » Fri Nov 14, 2003 2:32 am

Hi,

Does anyone have experiences doing taichi on drugs? Probably most of them wouldn't work at all but what about some psychedelics?

Of course, I'm not suggesting anyone to try, just interested if someone has thoughts about this.
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Postby Wushuer » Fri Nov 14, 2003 2:15 pm

Here's a good idea. Let's get all hopped up on halucinagenic drugs and try to do something that we can barely do straight.
I'm all for it. You go first.
Seriously, I don't think this would be such a hot idea, for many obvious reasons.
I have done forms after drinking alcohol, for a very specific purpose. That is because when I have gotten into fights, it tends to be at bars after I've had a few drinks.
If I can't fight this way, I'm probably not going to win.
It's not easy, but I do it. Your balance is shot, you find yourself thinking you're ten feet tall and bullet proof, not to mention good looking, but your TCC is not good.
It's fun at parties though.
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Postby tsopip » Fri Nov 14, 2003 3:42 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Wushuer:
Here's a good idea. Let's get all hopped up on halucinagenic drugs and try to do something that we can barely do straight.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Did I say that? I quess not.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>I have done forms after drinking alcohol, for a very specific purpose. That is because when I have gotten into fights, it tends to be at bars after I've had a few drinks.
If I can't fight this way, I'm probably not going to win.
It's not easy, but I do it. Your balance is shot, you find yourself thinking you're ten feet tall and bullet proof, not to mention good looking, but your TCC is not good.
It's fun at parties though.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, I didn't think about it from the fighting and/or winning point of view. I'm interested in what kind of sensations and feelings different drugs might give to training.

I've done forms after using alcohol and cannabis. I would say that neither of them made me feel too good about my training. I experienced alcohol more disruptive than cannabis (tried mix with taichi only once), though.
Of course, the manifestations are depending on the dosage. I might try cannabis and taichi more, as it seems to give mind more possibilities to concentrate on different things than normally.
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Postby rvc_ve » Tue Dec 23, 2003 6:17 pm

Its actually sad to read this thread! Drugs, alcohol and taijiquan????

So sad! That people have a mind so undisciplined that the temporary and losy efect of marihuana is actually a better choice than face their own mind and power of concentration without it
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Postby Wushuer » Tue Dec 23, 2003 6:52 pm

Rvc_ve,
Do you drink alcohol? I do. So I train this way sometimes, as stated, to help me be able to perform if forced to do so while under the influence of alcohol.
It only makes sense to me.
I can't speak about any other kinds of drugs, I don't use them. However, going by the same principal I would guess you would want to learn to control yourself as well as you could under the influence of these things.
I wouldn't want my mind to be out of my control like that, but I certainly can't speak ill of others mind altering substances when I use alcohol. It's the same thing, really. You're still using mind altering drugs, just because alcohol is the only legal one doesn't make it any "better".
What are your feelings regarding the practice of TCC under the influence of tobacco? How about coffee? Or tea? Or soda with caffeine in it? Or a lot of sugar?
These are all "drugs" that effect your mind and balance, yet no one seems to have a problem with people sipping coffee or tea, or lighting up tobacco products before their TCC practice. I know many high level TCC practitioners who use these substances, I use them all, except for tobacco, myself.
I certainly do not condone the use of any kind of illegal substance, but it would be foolish on my part to believe that alcohol, caffein, tobacco, xanex, prozac, ritalin, any of these kinds of things that people use every day, are different than that.

[This message has been edited by Wushuer (edited 12-23-2003).]
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Postby rvc_ve » Tue Dec 23, 2003 7:32 pm

Im sorry if I dont apreciate the fact that in a forum devoted to taijiquan, and thats directly related to the yang family, people post about smoking marihuana and practicing taijiquan under its effects. I consider it disrespectful and out of place.


As for you question, no I do not drink alcohol, smoke tobacco or consume drugs. Nor marihuana or any other kind. I feel that internal martial arts are related to health and to the fach that we can improve and be a better human being, and drungs and alcohol go in the opposite direction.


As for fighting... well, I've done mi share of it both here and abroad. Being in the Army National Guard I gurantee you I've seen some stuff, and even the best fighter turns into a joke while intoxicated. Taijiquan will not help you overcome this.

As yo probably know, taijiquan is a martial qiqong. Masters strongly advise not to practice this or any other form of qiqong after drinking alcohol or doing drugs, since the chi flow will be interrupted and alter, therofe resulting in serious damage to you own physiology.

Im sorry if I came across the wrong way, but just as I praise and contribute to good posts, I also feel the need to speak my mind when I see something that is wrong. This is not a matter of styles, or views on the art. Its about trying to mix something so pure and sublime as taijiquan with one of the tumors that are destroying the values on our society such as drugs, All of them, legal or ilegal.

If you like drugs and also like taiji, thats fine, but dont try justify drugs with taiji or the other way around. This is why in the 60's taiji gained the reputation of being a "hippie" art, practiced by bums who will do taijilike nonsense after eating mushrooms or smoking a joint.

We can ask any master for his opinion. I sure the heads of the yang family style have acces to this forum. I wonder what Yang zhen duo or Yang jun would have to say. After their family has spend generations perfecting and carrying an art so precious, Im guessing that just the idea to mix drugs and taijiquan would be repulsive to them, whether the say it out loud or not.


Please dont get me wrong, Im not trying to argue with anybody. Taijiquan is a way of life. For some people drugs can also be a way of life. Its all a matter of choices. You choose the life you want to live. Its you choice and yours alone, and nobody can tell you otherwhise. But dont try to get the best of both world because in this case, its just not possible.


And please dont take my word for it. Please experience it yourself. Someday, along with maturity in the art, you will realize that is just not worth to contaminate your life like that.

Remember the movie the MATRIX? we are also ensaved inside a "amatrix", just not by Machines and badass robots, but by our own shotcomings and excuses to see ourselved as we really are.

Rather that looking within, we wear masks because just the tough of perceiving ourselved like we really are is too painful. Drugs, alcohol, TV, fashion, or simply having a lazy and mediocre attitude towards life, the fact that we enslave ourselves in a consumer based society, spending money we dont have to buy crap we dont need...welll that is our prision.


Taijquan is underlined by taoist philosophy, wich teces us enlightment. And this doesnt mean become a chist or a spritual freak, it means to learn to see things like they really are and to experience life and the universe as fully as we can.

You sound like a commited practitioner man... dont fall in that trap. Stay up and break yoursef free...through taijiquan or through anything you want, but dont hide behind a joint or a botle and pretend nothing is going on...Life is short and we have a lot to learn here so we can take to thex stage of evolution.


I apologize to the administrator and other member of the forum for such a long post. I'm really here to discuss taijiquan and I will sitk to that subject in the future.


Nothing personal ok?
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Postby rvc_ve » Tue Dec 23, 2003 7:52 pm

And I also suck at typing!
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Postby Wushuer » Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:59 pm

Whoa, there.
I believe I expressed quite clearly that I don't use illegal drugs. Tsopip is the one who posted looking for input on doing TCC on marijuana and describing his experiences.
I do not use the stuff.
My point is that I, along with what I would imagine would be the majority of TCC practitioners, do have the occasional drink (oh, no. don't even try, I've been to enough seminars).
I have practiced TCC under the influence of alcohol so to say otherwise would be very untruthfull of me. I do not have the best results this way and do not advocate it as a training method, but I have done it.
The reality is, I drink from time to time, so I do forms after a couple of drinks. I do not get what anyone would call "drunk", ever, but I enjoy the occasional libation.
As you mentioned, it's a personal choice. This is one I made. I will not say otherwise to try and make myself seem more "honorable" for doing so would be very dis-honorable of me.
Since I consider caffeine, tobacco and even sugar to be mind altering drugs, I was simply making the point that these things might not be so hot to do along with TCC as well, but people do.
I even happen to know a few people who could not be considered anything less than "Masters" who do all these things, including drinking alcohol.
Not one of them would tell you it's "healthy" but they all do it.
TCC is a transcendental art. Perhaps some of us haven't exactly transcended all we should.
The reality is, these things happen. They're not pretty, definitely not healthy, but people do them.
Let's not hide our heads in the sand about it. It happens. We are, after all, only human.
Try to transcend having such a judgemental attitude, it too would not be considered "healthy" by the "masters".


[This message has been edited by Wushuer (edited 12-23-2003).]
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Postby Michael » Tue Dec 23, 2003 11:50 pm

Try to transcend having such a judgemental attitude, it too would not be considered "healthy" by the "masters".

correct!

We each have to find our individual way though this thing called life, we make our choices, we change, we stay where we are. We first should each try to overcome our own "rightness". Without doing that we are just fooling ourselves, no one else. Our obligation to our fellows is to help them how and when we can, not judge them.

my best
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Postby Louis Swaim » Tue Dec 23, 2003 11:52 pm

Greetings W,

The most revealing part of your earliest post on this thread is:

“I have done forms after drinking alcohol, for a very specific purpose. That is because when I have gotten into fights, it tends to be at bars after I've had a few drinks.
If I can't fight this way, I'm probably not going to win.”

I’m sure for you there is a logic to this, but frankly it escapes me.

Yang Chengfu did say in his “Discussion of Taijiquan Practice,” “Avoid practicing after drinking alcohol or immediately after a meal.” This seems a pretty clear statement about what the best circumstances are for practicing taijiquan. “Avoid” doesn’t seem to be a strict prohibition. However, his statement does not seem to support any particular rationale for intentionally practicing after consuming alcohol.

I suppose one could find oneself in a situation where one would need to defend oneself after consuming a large meal, but that wouldn’t compel me to make a point of practicing taijiquan on a full stomach.

Take care,
Louis


[This message has been edited by Louis Swaim (edited 12-23-2003).]
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Postby Michael » Wed Dec 24, 2003 12:34 am

Louis,

"I suppose one could find oneself in a situation where one would need to defend oneself after consuming a large meal, but that wouldn’t compel me to make a point of practicing taijiquan on a full stomach."

So that is what I have been doing wrong.

I myself don't understand the alcohol bit. My "training" in regards to alcohol and bars is--keep a low profile, and my voice down. Never had a bar fight.

Wushuer, maybe you need to go to better/nicer bars? Just kidding.

May you all enjoy the holidays!
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Postby rvc_ve » Wed Dec 24, 2003 1:25 am

HAPPY HOLIDAYS TO EVERYBODY !


FELIZ NAVIDAD Y PROSPERO ANO NUEVO!
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Postby Wushuer » Wed Dec 24, 2003 2:11 pm

Louis,
I made this practice only after hearing of the idea from one of my Sifu's. I did not come up with it on my own.
The idea, as expressed to me, is that if you are going to drink, as unhealthy as that is, then you should learn to at least have as much control of your body as you can after you have done so.
As most "fights" I have ever been in happen after both parties have been drinking, then this made perfect sense to me.
As I have stated, I practice TCC first and foremost for the martial abilities. I find it logical to then practice in the state under which I am most likely going to need it, after a couple of drinks in a bar type setting.
Is this not where most people are the most likely to encounter an attacker?
I happen to know it is, at least for me.
To NOT practice after having a couple of drinks, then, would be foolish.
Is this a best practice for health and longevity?
Nope.
Unless....
You take into account the fact that if you've had a couple of drinks, then can't defend yourself from an attacker, you're NOT going to be healthy, if even alive, after the encounter.
Fact of life.
Sorry you don't see the logic. Again, I grew up in a very hostile environment and only removed myself from it a few years ago.
I tend to think in terms of survival. This is a survival mechanism.
Yang Cheng Fu won't be there to extricate my rear end from the sling it would be in if I was attacked after having a couple of belts, will he.
Reality is a much greater "master" than high falutin' ideals when the punches start to fly.
The "masters" can speachify to the hight heavens about "best" practices for health and longevity, I must live in reality.
Best idea? Don't drink at all.
Reality, I do. Therefore, I must be able to handle it.
I do not drink to excess. I've had those days, I didn't particularly enjoy them and that's why I don't anymore. I have two drinks, tops, when I do. Never more than that as I don't enjoy that feeling.
As this was suggested to me, heavily, by a very highly respected Sifu within Wu's T'ai Chi Ch'uan Academy, it is a practice I follow.
No one else has to, by any means. It is simply what I was taught, it is how I practice. That's all.

Would I practice after a large meal? I have. It's very uncomfortable.
Combat situations can occur at any time. After a meal is a time when it could happen. So I practice this way.
Why?
Because if I walk out of a restaurant, full up, and some nutjob attacks me for my wallet, I must be able and ready to defend myself.
Same thing.
I've said it before, I'll say it again. Yang Cheng Fu's "ten essentials" and all his writings are not carved in stone for other styles of TCC. The style I am most familiar with is Wu Chien Chuan style. As much as they revere YCF, his essentials are not considered "essential". So I have not practiced according to his dictums in the past.
Would anyone here follow Wu Chien Chuan's "essentials" to the letter if they were Yang Cheng Fu stylists?
I thought not.
I'm relating what I do, how I've practiced in the past. Should I do otherwise?
I don't believe so.
This is who I am and what I believe. It has worked for me. I have had to defend myself after drinking. I know the reality of it.
Have any of you?
If not, you just can't appreciate the reality.
Tommorow, Xmas day, when you are sipping your wine or having a beer, think about what I've said.
Could you defend yourself if you were attacked in that condition?
If not, you will have neither longevity nor good health if you are attacked.
Think about that.


[This message has been edited by Wushuer (edited 12-24-2003).]
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Postby Michael » Wed Dec 24, 2003 3:09 pm

To All

Shen Dan Kuai Le Xin Nian Yu Kuai.

Wushuer, If I had just bloated out and I was attacked, I probably would just have to lie down and die, cause I already would be doing so.

I suppose that there is value in understanding how the situaton (alcohal influenced) is different than a "sober" condition. That ensures that you are not unaware of differences if end up in the wrong place at the wrong time, in the wrong condition. I understand.

my best!
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Postby Wushuer » Wed Dec 24, 2003 3:27 pm

Michael,
I do go to nicer bars, now. I no longer live in the wonderful, former, murder capital of the world: Detroit city. It is not as bad, now, as it was then. Not by a long shot, but it still not a city where one walks down the street after dark.
I grew up there, in the dark times of the 70's. When you didn't walk down the street during the day, much less at night.
That is where I spent my formative years. Growing up in a place where fighting for your life is not such an unusual occurance, you learn to paint life with a brush that has a very heavy emphasys on survival techniques.
I learned to fight by fighting back when being attacked. In my neighborhood, around the block from my house, when I was very young.
That continued until I started formal martial arts training at fourteen. My father sent me to Tae Kwon Do classes, because the neighborhood was so rough, and I'm a little guy.
My education continued as I got older. I went to the school of hard knocks and learned to survive through some interesting situations.
When I discovered TCC I began to see things in a different fashion in terms of staying quieter, appearing humbler. These things are effective, but not a proof against drunken sots by any stretch.
I no longer live in that environment, but after a lifetime of being in survival mode, you don't just lose it overnight.
I make no apologies for being a survivalist, it has served me well in that I am still here despite some rather high odds.
I drink alcohol. I drink caffeine. Heck, I even have foods high in sugar from time to time.
None of these things are "healthy" for me. They are probably detrimental to TCC.
But I do them.
Life is lived by the choices we make. These are choices I make.
I'm a realist. This is reality.
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