Other Yang family descendants?

Postby psalchemist » Tue Feb 24, 2004 2:38 pm

Greetings Jerry,

Thanks very much for providing those images.
Excellent.

Also for the historical,training traces and details...All very interesting.

Best,
Psalchemist.
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Postby Wushuer » Tue Feb 24, 2004 5:46 pm

OK. I'll say it.
WOW!!!!
I never thought to use my scanner to blow these images up like that. It sure does bring out a clarity that you can't get simply from the original, tiny photo's on a poster I have of these stills.
Excellent idea.

Now.
I hate to be a stickler for detail and honestly am just wondering about this and not trying to start any kind of huge flame war or anything, especially as I'n not entirely sure who the gentleman is in the image.
Look closely at the image of Wang Yonquan doing Press...
Does anyone else see a problem here with his form?
Tell you what...
Just so I'm NOT a being overly picky, I'll just mention that I see a minor thing wrong with his form that may only be the angle of the photo, but was the first, glaring thing I saw.
Anyone else see what APPEARS, at this angle in this photo, to be an issue with his form?
Maybe I'm just seeing things?
I'm certainly no expert, but my teachers in Wu Chien Chuan and both Yang styles I've studied held to this same principal........

That said... I'll let the board decide if I'm seeing something that's not truly an issue.

Also,
Jerry,
I tried your version of Press, with the knife edge held to the forearm.
Interesting change of energy. It left me wondering what some of the applications for that usage might be....?

Polaris,
I tried your one armed Press. Intersting as well. I did my best to follow your advice about opening both sides of my back while doing so.
Gave me an intersting energy sensation as well. I'm not certain I'm doing this correctly, if this could be said to be "correct", but I can certainly see what you're hinting at...
I'm going to keep working on it. I kind of liked it.

All,
I've been working very diligently on my Press, and have applied my left hand to my right arm in just about every spot from my fingertips to my elbow.
I would recommend trying this, as you get many different energies this way.
One armed is a real trip.
I still like the fingertips to wrist energies in the Wu forms, but I'm experiencing many different energies with these differing, or non-existant, finger and palm placements in Press.
Anyone else doing this? How did it work for you?
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Postby psalchemist » Tue Feb 24, 2004 6:36 pm

Greetings Wushuer,

From what I can glean from the image...which is permeated with harsh light at that spot...is that the press seems to be executed with the fingertips rather than the palm of the hand as I was taught.
Is that what you are refering to?

Best,
Psalchemist.
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Postby DavidJ » Tue Feb 24, 2004 8:40 pm

Hi Louis,

You wrote, > Interestingly, there is no photo of Yang Chengfu doing Ward Off Right, at least that I?m aware of. <

I was going by your book which on page 24 says that both figures 9 'Ward Off Right' and 14 'Press' are traced from photos. Interestingly, if you superimpose one over the other, you can see that it's two photos of the same posture. Perhaps there is no photo of Ji.

I see what you mean about the problem of not having the photos taken at the precise ending postures. For stills, some, like Tung Fu Ling, posed for photos rather than have someone snapping away while they did the form.

Regards,

David J

[This message has been edited by DavidJ (edited 02-24-2004).]
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Postby DavidJ » Tue Feb 24, 2004 8:46 pm

Wusherer,

At first glance it looks like his left heel is off the ground, but if you study on it you can see that it isn't. He seems to have a gentle touch. I lke what I see.

Regards,

David J
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Postby Wushuer » Tue Feb 24, 2004 9:24 pm

Psalchemist,
No, that's not it. The fingertips to the forearm is how I learned this posture in the first Yang style I studied, this does not appear incorrect to me, only one of the many ways to generate power in this form.

David J.,
That's not it either, I didn't even see that, though I can now see how you would think so if you just glanced at the photo.
You're close, though.
I'll give a hint...
I used a straight edge to verify if I was seeing what I thought I was seeing.

Again, very well could be camera angle, and it's truly not important.
I only noticed it because I'm taking the 13 posture class again and my instructor spent a bit of time last night going over WHY you don't do what it looks like he may be doing.

Oh, the heck with it.
It looks like his knee is well past his toes on his front leg.
It's really hard to tell from a still photo, though, because the angle could be wrong and so give an optical illusion.
As everyone's mentioned it also depends on WHEN the photo was taken. If this photo happened to be "snapped" at that precise instant when this gentleman released jing, his knee very well could be past his toe and still be considered proper form by a lot of people.
There's room for debate on that particular issue and I doubt we want to bring that up here in this thread, but bringing your knee past your toe during form practice has always been frowned on by every school I've attended.

Again, in case anyone missed it, this is just how I see it, and a straight edge measures it against the photo as I see it on my monitor.
If I'm wrong, it won't be the first time and it truly doesn't matter. I am implying no criticism of anyones form or practices, merely making an observation.
It's just the first thing I saw when I studied this photo so I figured I'd mention it.
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Postby Louis Swaim » Wed Feb 25, 2004 3:39 am

Greetings David,

Re: “I was going by your book which on page 24 says that both figures 9 'Ward Off Right' and 14 'Press' are traced from photos.”

It does indeed say that (and I was of course translating from the original there), but in fact there is only one photo of Yang Chengfu in that configuration, and in his book it is always called “Ji.” There are no photos of Yang Chengfu identified as “You Peng” (ward off right), nor is there a form description of such in Taijiquan Tiyong Quanshu. The same photo appearing in several repeats on the official poster of Yang Chengfu’s form photos is in like manner identified as “Ji.” I have a book by Zeng Zhaoran, who used Yang Chengfu’s photos for the form instructions, but inserted Chen Weiming’s photos in some spots for transitions or postures for which there are no YCF images. Ward Off Right is one of the places where Chen Weiming’s photo is inserted.

Take care,
Louis
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Postby psalchemist » Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:52 am

Greetings Wushuer,

In an attempt to understand Wu style better...

You've mentioned that in Press...the left hand can range between forearm? and fingertip?
and the right hand from palm heel? to fingertip as well?

Is there a set standard for Wu style Press or does it embrace all of these...
as in the sense of open to possibility?

Please rectify or dispell any misconceptions I may have described.

Thank you,
Best Regards,
Psalchemist.

[This message has been edited by psalchemist (edited 02-25-2004).]
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Postby Wushuer » Wed Feb 25, 2004 2:20 pm

Um......?
No. I never said that about Wu style Press. In fact, I've gone out of my way not to describe Wu style Press in any kind of detail.
To dispell any further, incorrect notions about Wu style Press, I will just say that in the Wu style form I learned you place fingertips to wrist.
In fact, you do so in a lot of places that in YCF style you don't connect your arms at all.
During Ward Offs, Roll Back, all of those, your fingertips are either on your wrists or sometimes palms.
But during Press, your fingertips of your left hand are lightly touching your right wrist.
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Postby psalchemist » Wed Feb 25, 2004 8:46 pm

Greetings Wushuer,

Thanks for clarifying those distinctions for me...I must be confusing your descriptions of Yang and Wu styles.

You were saying that with the "Press" you experienced more press action...was this for the Yang family style Press as shown above by Master Yang Zhen Duo?

How do the presses compare in the two styles?

They both seem, then, quite differing from each other.

Any personal opinions you might want to share would be quite welcome.

Thank you,
Best regards,
Psalchemist.
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Postby Wushuer » Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:14 pm

I have, already, found more than adequate pressing in my Wu style Press. I studied the Wu style square form of Wu Kung Yi for long enough to know the ins and outs of their press. I'm no expert, by a long shot, but I know the forms, and their variations, and the jins of that style quite well.
It was in the Yang Cheng Fu style Press that I found more pressing with the hand placement as shown in the photo of Yang Zhen Guo.
The major difference in between would have to be (I know, I sound like a broken record, but it's true) the frame size and circle size.
Wu style Press is a bit more compact, I almost want to say "more explosive" but I'm sure that's wrong. It seems that way on the surface, but deep, deep down I am beginning to feel it is not that at all.
Smaller. Much, smaller. That's about all I'll say until I get to know this styles Press jin a bit more intimately.
I'm just starting to scratch the surface, after all.
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Postby psalchemist » Thu Feb 26, 2004 5:03 pm

Greetings Wushuer,

Thanks for clarifying those details.

The difference in the two styles...more compact and more expansive...is very interesting, I think.

Leads me to ponder about substantial issues.

Questions of the production of power...

Fascinating.

Best Regards,
Psalchemist.
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Postby Wushuer » Thu Feb 26, 2004 5:21 pm

Psalchemist:
You sound like my current YCF instructor. You don't happen to live near me, do you....?
He has been asking me much the same questions regarding just how on earth the Wu style generates it's power.
I think we'd best let Polaris answer that question. I bow humbly to his ability to clearly state the theory behind the style of Wu Kwong Yu. My attempts leave too many gaps, as my knowledge of the theory is weaker than my knowledge of application.
My short answer would leave everyone asking questions that I, quite frankly, won't have the answers for.
I could show you, and I wouldn't even have to kill you afterwards, but how I would put that demonstration into words.....? I just don't know.
If you're ever in my neck of the woods, I could demonstrate.
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Postby Polaris » Thu Feb 26, 2004 5:54 pm

The proper answer to the question of how one can generate compact, small-circle ji is with years and years of practice.

Here is a brief citation from Sifu Eddie's Great uncle, the late Wu Kung-tsao (or Wu Gongzao, 1902-1983), on the mechanical aspects of Wu style ji (Wade-Giles "chi3."):

"This works like two wheels, tread on tread, spinning in opposite directions. It resembles the axles of a noodle pressing machine simultaneously rotating inwardly. The sheet of noodle is squeezed out from the two rotating surfaces. In pushing hands if the opponent attacks with the elbow or shoulder, chi can be applied to "Enter with the flow and counter upon exit." This involves a hard power, as in the verse: "Like a coin tossed on a drumhead or a ball bouncing off a wall."

This isn't a hard force as in the external schools, because the body has to be relaxed so that the back muscles can expand correctly, but it feels hard to the opponent who may experience chi applied to them...

Cheers,
P.


[This message has been edited by Polaris (edited 02-26-2004).]
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Postby Wushuer » Thu Feb 26, 2004 6:52 pm

Like I said, we needed Polaris to state that as clearly as required. I don't know if anyone else understood that, but I sure did.

P.,
That is a fantastic quote. I can clearly visualize what Wu Kung-tsoa is saying.
Thank you, once again.
I wish I could train with you! My instructors were (are) excellent, but they concentrated on the practical and left out theory.
That was most likely due to my not really asking, I'm sure. In my time at WTCCA, I was concentrating on the practical, the theory usually made my eyes glaze over and turned me into a monkey mind.
The sheer amount of pure gold that was being pushed into my pockets that I let slip through...
It still boggles my mind.

Anyway, another excellent post. I hope you don't mind if I cut and paste that into an e-mail and send it to my instructor? He will appreciate it very much.
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