Dong Yingjie form photos

Dong Yingjie form photos

Postby Louis Swaim » Tue Sep 21, 2004 7:53 pm

Greetings,

A while back, Jerry posted a great link to Chip Ellis’ site in a thread about the spear set. Has anyone checked it out lately? There is a newly added pdf file compiling the photos of Dong Yingjie’s form, from his 1948 book. The photos are quite clear, and it’s a very nice document to have.

Here’s the link. Scroll down and click on the file named “Tung Ying Chien’s [sic] 1948 ‘Red Book’ Pictures. . . .”

http://www.chipellis.com/Writings/writings.htm

Take care,
Louis
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Postby Marc Heyvaert » Wed Sep 22, 2004 11:31 am

Thanks!

Great link

Marc
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Postby Gu Rou Chen » Wed Sep 22, 2004 6:59 pm

Interesting that 'shan4 tong1 bei4';"fan through back" is here named 'shan1 tong1 bei4' with "mountain" instead of "fan". Has anyone seen this anywhere else?

shan1; shan4 homophones if you disregard the tone.

Yang Chengfu probably spoke with a Beijing accent. What was Dong Yingjie's linguistic background?
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Postby Louis Swaim » Wed Sep 22, 2004 7:27 pm

Greetings Jeff,

Yes, in fact Dong's book names it "shan tong bi," instead of "shan tong bei" -- "arm" instead of "back." I've seen other variants of this form name.

There are a number of spots in this Red Book document where the form name translations don't quite match up with the Chinese text. There are also some interesting English names that may reflect some oral transmissions different from the names that became more standardized. For example, check out the name, "two birds flying" beginning the Lan Que Wei sequence (fig. 26.1) after "Shangbu Banlanchui," and "Dump the Bucket" (fig. 12.1-12.3) for another Banlanchui sequence. Then there's "Fist by Waist" for "Pie shen chui" (Fig. 24.1). By the way, I particularly like the spirit of that posture exhibited by Dong. Other ones I like are his Roll Back (fig. 3.5), and the beginning of his Single Whip transition (fig. 4.1).

Take care,
Louis
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Postby Yury Snisarenko » Thu Sep 23, 2004 8:32 am

Greetings All,

I've noticed that "Preparatory Posture" was translated as "Wuji Posture", and that is quite understandable, because the next posture is named "Beginning of Taiji" in this book. It caused me to question myself whether I ever met "Wuji" name in any authentic book of Yang style and I couldn't remember one. I'll appreciate if someone can indicate me the book in Yang tradition with such name for the first posture and adequate explanation of its implication.

Take care,

Yuri
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Postby Louis Swaim » Thu Sep 23, 2004 7:50 pm

Greetings Jeff,

T.Y Pang studied with Dong Yingjie in Hong Kong, and he says that Dong understood Cantonese, but was more comfortable with Mandarin. I checked his book, “On Tai Chi Chuan,” last night, and he lists two alternate names for the posture, one with “mountain,” and one with “fan.” Both versions Pang cites have the character for “arm” (bi) rather than “back” (bei). Yang Chengfu’s book has “back,” and the form narrative specifically addresses the jin issuing from the back and “fanning through the back.” The character for arm does have an alternate pronunciation, “bei,” and as you mention, “mountain,” and “fan” are homophones in Mandarin, so these alternate names are not surprising. I think I’ve seen several versions of this form name.

Take care,
Louis
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Postby Louis Swaim » Thu Sep 23, 2004 8:10 pm

Greetings Yuri,

I agree that most Yang-style books do not refer to the preparatory posture as Wuji, but it may be that the term endured in oral tradition. Sun Lutang, as you know, did explicitly use the term in his book for the standing-in-stillness that precedes the initial movements. I think he named it “wuji xue”—Study of Wuji.

Take care,
Louis
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Postby Yury Snisarenko » Fri Sep 24, 2004 7:01 am

Louis,

Thank you for shearing your knowledge and analysis of the alternative names. I do enjoy to read SLT's books. I just assumed that there could be a peculiarity in Yang style.

Take care,

Yuri
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Postby DavidJ » Sat Sep 25, 2004 12:19 am

Hi Everyone,

I guess this is a good time to post the names I've learned.

The numbers correspond to pictures in Tung Ying Chieh's 1948 Red Book. Some of the names given in that .pdf are in brackets. Notice that I use "Draw Back" where you use "Roll Back" and I use "Roll Back" for the movement before "Push."

Tung Long Form Names

1.1 Wuji
2.1, 2.2 [Beginning of Taiji] The Arising
3.1 Grasping the Sparrow's Tail to the Right
3.2 Grasping the Sparrow's Tail to the Left
3.3, 3.4 Ward off
3.5 Draw Back
3.6 Press
3.6a Roll Back
3.7 Push
4.1, 4.2, 4.3Single Whip
5.1 [Close Hands] Raise Hands and Step Up to Play the Harp
6.1, 6.2 White Crane Spreads (Fans) Its Wings
7.1, 7.2, 7.3 Brush Knee (Twist Step) Left
8.1 Play the Guitar (Pi Pa)
9.1, 9.2 Brush Knee Left
9.3, 9.4 Brush Knee Right
9.4a, 9.5 Brush Knee Left
10.1 Play the Guitar (Pi Pa)
11.1, 11.2 Brush Knee Left
12.1 Step (up), [Strike] with Turn Step,
12.2 Parry, and
12.3 Punch
AKA Grasping the Handle of the Hammer and Striking the Gong
AKA Grasping the Handle of the Bucket, Drawing Water from the Well, and Dumping the Bucket
13.1 Retreat, As though Closing
13.2 (Open and Slide Hands Up)
14.1 [No Name] (turn and open hands wide)
14.2 Cross Hands (Close and Seal)
15.1 [Carry Tiger to Mountain] Grasping the Tail of The Tiger And Carrying it Over The Mountain
15.2 Brush Knee Right
15.3 15.4 (Circle the Right Hand) and Draw Back
15.5 Press
15.6 Roll Back and
15.7 Push
16.1, 16.2, 16.3, 16.4 Lateral Single Whip
16.5 Punch Under The Elbow
17.1, 17.2 Repulse The Monkey Right (Option of 3-5-7-9-11 steps)
17.4, 17.4 Repulse The Monkey Left
17.5, 17.6 Repulse The Monkey Right
18.1, 18.2 Slanting Flying
19.1 Raise Hands and Step Up to Play the Harp
20.1, 20.2 White Crane Spreads Its Wings
21.1, 21.2, 21.3 Brush Left Knee Left
22.1, 22.2 Needle To the Bottom of the Sea
Fan through the back begins with
23.1, 23.2 Raise Arms, Step Forward and Push [Push Through Mountain]
Followed by Fan Through the Back AKA The Wheel [not shown]
24.1, and ends with Fist at the Waist and
24.2 [Fan through Back] Turn and Chop With Fist
25.1 [Big Roll Back]
25.2, 25.3, 25.4 Step, Parry, and Punch
26.1 [Two Birds Flying] Yin-Yang the Hands
26.2, 26.3 Ward Off
26.4 Draw Back
26.5 Press
26.6 Roll Back and
26.7 Push
27.1, 27.2, 27.3 Single Whip
28.1 28.2, 28.3 Wave Hands Like Clouds (Option of 3-5-7-9-11 steps)
28.4, 28.5 Wave Hands Like Clouds
29.1, 29.2 Wave Hands Like Clouds [not shown] to Single Whip
30.1, 30.2 High Pat On a Horse
31.1, 31.2, 31.3 Separation Of the Right Foot
31.4, 31.5, 31.6 Separation Of the Left Foot
32.1, 32.2 Turn [180 degrees] And Kick With Heel
33.1, 33.2 Brush Left Knee Left
33.3 Brush Left Knee Right
34.1 Brush Knee Left with Punch To Knee
begins Fan Through the Back:The Wheel
35.1, 35.2 Turn and Chop With Fist
36.1, 36.2 Step, Parry, and Punch
37.1, 37.2, 37.3 Right Heel Kick
38.1 Grasping the Tail of the Tiger
38.2 Strike the Tiger Left
38.3 Strike the Tiger Right
39.1, 39.2 Shift Left, Right Heel Kick
40.1, 40.2, 40.3 Double Punch To Temples AKA Double Wind [Strike Opponent's Ears]
41.1, 41.2 Left Heel Kick
42.1, 42.2 Spin Step [Turn 360 degrees] Right Heel Kick
43.1, 43.2 Step, Parry, and Punch
44.1 Retreat, As though Closing
44.2 (Open and Slide Hands Up)
45.1 [No Name] (turn and open hands wide)
45.2 Cross Hands (Close and Seal) [Apparent Closure]
46.1 Grasping the Tail of The Tiger And Carrying it Over The Mountain
46.2 Brush Knee Right
46.3 (Circle the Right Hand) and
46.4 Draw Back
46.5 Press
46.6 Roll Back and
46.7 Push
47.1, 47.2, 47.3 Oblique Single Whip
48.1, 48.2 Parting The Wild Horse's Mane Right
48.3, 48.4 Parting The Wild Horse's Mane Left
48.5, 48.7 Parting The Wild Horse's Mane Right
Grasping Sparrows Tail to the Right [not shown]
49.1 Grasping the Sparrow's Tail to the Left [Ward Off Left]
49.2 Ward off
49.3 Draw Back
49.4 Press
49.5 Roll Back and
49.6 Push
50.1, 50.2, 50.3 Single Whip
51.1, 51.2, 51.3 Fair Lady Works The Shuttle to the Southeast
51.4, 51.5 Fair Lady Works The Shuttle to the Northeast
51.6, 51.7 Fair Lady Works The Shuttle to the Northwest
51.8, 51.9 Fair Lady Works The Shuttle to the Southwest
Grasping the Sparrows Tail to the Right [not shown]
52.1 Grasping the Sparrow's Tail to the Left [Ward Off Left]
52.2 Ward off
52.3 Draw Back
52.4 Press
52.5 Roll Back and
52.6 Push
53.1, 53.2, 53.3 Single Whip
54.1, 54.2, 54.3 Wave Hands Like Clouds (Option of 3-5-7-9-11 steps)
54.4, 54.5 Wave Hands Like Clouds
55.1, 55.2 Wave Hands Like Clouds [not shown] to Single Whip
55.3 Snake Creeps Down [Lower Posture]
56.1 Golden Cock Stands On Left Leg
56.2, 56.3 Golden Cock Stands On Right Leg
57.1, 57.2 Repulse The Monkey Right (Option of 3-5-7-9-11 steps)
57.3, 57.4 Repulse The Monkey Left
57.5, 57.6 And Repulse The Monkey Right
58.1, 58.2 Slanting Flying
59.1 Raise Hands and Step Up to Play the Harp
60.1, 60.2 White Crane Spreads Its Wings
61.1, 61.2, 61.3 Brush Knee Left
62.1, 62.2 Needle To the Bottom of the Sea
Fan through the back begins with
63.1, 63.2 Raise Arms, Step Forward and Push [Push Through Mountain]
Followed by Fan Through the Back AKA The Wheel [not shown]
64.1 and ends with (Open Handed) Fist at the Waist and
64.2 [Fan through Back] Turn and Chop With (Open Handed) Fist
64.3 [Big Roll Back]
65.1, 65.2 Step, Parry, and Punch
66.1 [Two Birds Flying] Yin-Yang the Hands
66.2, 66.3 Ward Off
66.4 Draw Back
66.5 Press
66.6 Roll Back [not shown] and
66.7 Push
67.1, 67.2, 67.3 Single Whip
68.1 68.2, 68.3 Wave Hands Like Clouds (Option of 3-5-7-9-11 steps)
68.4, 68.5 Wave Hands Like Clouds
69.1, 69.2 Wave Hands Like Clouds [not shown] to Single Whip
70.1 High Pat On a Horse
70.2 White Snake Sticks Out Its Tongue [Thrust Out Palm]
71.1 Turn [180 degrees] and
71.2 Kick with Right Heel
72.1, 72.2 Brush Knee Left and Punch to Groin
73.1 Yin-Yang Hands
73.2 Ward off
73.3 Draw Back with Half Step
73.4 Press
73.5 Roll Back and
73.6 Push (Optional Half Step)
74.1, 74.2, 74.3 Single Whip
74.4 Snake Creeps Down [Lower Posture]
75.1 (Step Up To) Seven Stars Crossing
76.1, 76.2 Retreat to Ride The Tiger [Fat White Stork]
77.1 Yin-Yang Hands to
77.2 Spin Step [Turn 360 degrees] and
77.3, 77.4 Lotus Kick (Transverse Kick)
78.1 Double Punch to Chin
88.2, 78.3 Draw The Bow (The Archer) [Shoot the Bow]
79.1 Draw Back, then Step,
79.2Parry, and
79.3 Punch
80.1 Retreat, As though Closing
80.2 (Open and Slide Hands Up)
81.1 [No Name] (turn and open hands wide)
81.2 Cross Hands (Close and Seal) [Close Taiji]
81.3 Uncross and Lower Hands, Stand Up. [Wuji] (End)

I hope this is useful to you.

Regards,

David J
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Postby Louis Swaim » Sat Sep 25, 2004 6:07 am

Greetings,

Here are a few more findings on the form name ¡°Fan Through Back.¡± ÉÈͨ±³

¡°Arm,¡± or ¡°Back?¡±

There¡¯s a possibility that Dong Yingjie may have had something to do with the variant form using ¡°arm¡± (±Û bi, bei), instead of ¡°back¡± (±³ bei). For example, Yang Chengfu¡¯s 1931 book, _Taijiquan Shiyongfa_, used the ¡°arm¡± character. It is said that Dong Yingjie played the primary role in compiling and editing that book. I also see, however, that the first of the set of documents¡ªsaid to have been transmitted by Yang Banhou, ¡°Taijiquan jiu jue,¡± a text called ¡°Quan ti da yong jue¡± (greater application of the entire body) used the ¡°arm¡± character. (See Yang Zhenduo¡¯s book, Zhongguo Yang Shi Taiji, p. 19.) That short text is interesting for the fact that it inventories the major posture names and applications in a short formulaic presentation. The provenance of that text is not crystal clear, but if indeed it came from Banhou, that would make it a very early indicator of the posture names in the Yang tradition.

Yang Chengfu¡¯s later 1934 book, _Taijiquan tiyong quanshu_, used the ¡°back¡± character. Chen Yanlin¡¯s 1943 _Taijiquan dao, jian, gan, sanshou hebian_, used the ¡°back¡± character.

Xu Yusheng¡¯s 1921 book, -_Taijiquan shi tujie_, used the ¡°back¡± character, explaining the name: ¡°Fan Through Back is modeled on the spinal vertebrae serving as the hinge of a fan. The two arms are the spread of the fan, like the shape of an open fan. The ¡°through the back¡± ͨ±³ refers to enabling the strength of the spine to ¡®penetrate through¡¯ (ͨ tong) to the two arms." (my rough trans.)

Given this explanation, plus the fact that the character for arm both resembles that for back, and has an alternate pronunciation like that for back, may explain why these alternate form names occur. Functionally, the strength is both ¡°through the back,¡± and ¡°through the arms.¡±

I¡¯m just hypothesizing, though. This may again be a case where names were passed along in oral tradition, but were recorded based upon variant interpretations of what the names meant. There¡¯s a posture in the Chen style ¡°first lu¡± form also named ¡°shan tong bei¡± with a different shan character, ÉÁͨ±³, sometimes translated ¡°flash through back.¡± Then again, in the Wu/Li form, there is a form named ¡°san yong bei¡± Èýð®±³, which Jou Tsung Hwa translated ¡°three changes of the back.¡± Unlike the Chen posture, the Wu/Li posture at least remotely resembles the Yang posture.

I don¡¯t really know what to make of these variants, but I hope the data is of interest.

Take care,
Louis





[This message has been edited by Louis Swaim (edited 09-25-2004).]
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Postby Yury Snisarenko » Sat Sep 25, 2004 7:50 am

Louis,

Thanks again for the interesting investigation. I have a question about one more variant of name's interpretation. Since "shan1" is also a verb "to fan". What do you think, is it possible that the name also means "to wave aside/ to brush aside the opponent's attack past my back" (using my upper arm)?

Take care,

Yuri
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Postby Louis Swaim » Sat Sep 25, 2004 7:52 pm

Greetings Yuri,

I agree that the action you describe is part of the movement, but I¡¯m not certain that it accounts for the name of the form, ¡°Fan Through Back.¡± I think the name is more likely based on the two arms¡¯ resemblance to the opening out of a fan, as reflected in Xu Yusheng¡¯s explanation. The splines, or spokes of the fan open out from a pivot point, and the action of the arms mimic that opening, or spreading motion, with the spine as a focal point. But as for the action of the right arm that you describe, the early text from Yang Banhou describes it well. Wile translates the line, ¡°Fan Through the back employs the skill of bracketing.¡± (T¡¯ai-chi Touchstones, p. 49). The Chinese is ¡°Shan tong bei/bi shang tuo jia gong¡± (ÉÈͨ±Û ÉÏÍмܹ¦). Note that the Chinese text uses the ¡°arm¡± character, but Wile¡¯s version has it, ¡°back.¡± It may be that the version he worked from had the ¡°back¡± character. The narrative description in both of Yang Chengfu¡¯s books, Taijiquan Shiyongfa, and Taijiquan Tiyong Quanshu, also use the verb tuo, and exactly the same phrase, ¡°support the jin of the opponent¡¯s right hand,¡± to describe the action of the right arm: ÍД³ÓÒÊÖÖ®„Å¡£

Take care,
Louis


[This message has been edited by Louis Swaim (edited 09-25-2004).]
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Postby Louis Swaim » Sun Sep 26, 2004 4:17 am

Greetings David,

You wrote: 'Notice that I use "Draw Back" where you use "Roll Back" and I use "Roll Back" for the movement before "Push."'

May I ask what the source is for your list? That seems reversed to me. "Roll Back" is the conventional translation for Lu (Redbook fig. 3.5). The shifting back of the An (Push) section is not ordinarily named separately, but it seems to me that if it were, "Draw Back" would more logically fit there.

There are some other items in your list that don't quite match up with the Chinese names. As I mentioned, that's the case with the pdf Redbook document as well.

Thanks,
Louis
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Postby DavidJ » Mon Sep 27, 2004 7:42 pm

Hi Louis,

All these names were taught to me by my first teacher who had learned from Marshall Ho'o and Tung Kai Ying. For 'Lu' I was taught to draw my right hip straight back. What I call 'Roll Back,' the backward shift, corresponding to "figure 16" in your book, was taught to me as a separate movement. My first teacher often referred to 'Ward off,' 'Draw Back,' 'Press,' 'Roll Back,' and 'Push' as the "Fabulous five." Had I my hands on a barrel that 'Roll Back' movement would roll the barrel backwards.

What other names have you questions about?

Regards,

David J
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Postby Gu Rou Chen » Tue Sep 28, 2004 7:21 am

Louis,

I find the naming and variants fascinating. Having lived many years in Southern China, my initial feeling was that 'bi4' being used for 'bei4' was a reflection of a southerner's pronunciation.


Isn't variant dialect pronunciation the origin of 'grasp the birds tail' being derived from 'lazily rolling the sleeves'? Or is it the other way around?

Jeff
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