Yang Sau Chung (Zhen Ming)

Postby Michael » Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:13 am

I have been away for awhile,

I have done a fair amount of reading on the YSCs set, and would love to see it myself. I wish I was going with you Bob. Can't wait to hear your impressions.
Michael
 
Posts: 278
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 7:01 am
Location: Wi. USA

Postby The Wandering Brit » Thu Dec 16, 2004 12:58 pm

YCF04, that sounds familiar...do you also have great emphasis placed on opening and closing?

Having had the chance to attend a seminar with Master Ding, Ip Tai Tak's first disciple, I must say I was overwhelmed. Some of the things he can do I find very hard to get my head around. It's very inspiring, but daunting.
The Wandering Brit
 
Posts: 60
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2004 6:01 am
Location: Colchester, United Kingdom

Postby Bamenwubu » Thu Dec 16, 2004 3:22 pm

Michael,
Wish I was there now!!
I will certainly let you all know how it goes when I get back, if not before.
I have to figure out how to get an internet connection down there!
I keep forgetting that my cable connection won't reach Florida from here.
I'll have to look into getting a 30 day dial up account or something.
And fast. I'm leaving Saturday morning, 6 a.m. for Tampa. Then a few days on the beach, if it's warm enough, the weather is getting cooler even down there, then off for Ft. Lauderdale, where I will get to the school sometime between beach trips and margaritas.
Bamenwubu
 
Posts: 184
Joined: Mon May 03, 2004 6:01 am
Location: Frankfort, KY, USA

Postby yangchengfu04 » Thu Dec 16, 2004 4:46 pm

Wandering Brit, since I've only been there a bit under two years there is still much I do not know or even understand correctly. I can relate to where you're coming from though, I keep getting more and more stuff to practice, and I'm wondering how I'm going to find the time to fit it all in! It is quite inspiring to me also, but I try not to worry much about what I still have to learn. I just keep plodding on.... practice, practice, practice!!!



[This message has been edited by yangchengfu04 (edited 12-16-2004).]
yangchengfu04
 
Posts: 41
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 7:01 am
Location: yangchengfu04@yahoo.com

Postby laton13 » Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:48 pm

Hi all,
I train in Dublin with Master Ding's association (Ip Tai Tak's first disciple). We do lots of standing Chi Kung. We also do a lot of partner work and lots of good applications work. We learn the Form with lots of emphasis on the basics and the core principles, later we do the Yin-Yang aspects of the Form and also the opening and closing aspects. I’m still just a beginner but it seems to be a very traditional lineage with a very good balance of martial and health training.
laton13
 
Posts: 2
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2004 6:01 am
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Postby yangchengfu04 » Thu Dec 16, 2004 9:00 pm

Wandering Brit and laton13: Do you guys also practice dynamic push hands? It seems to be the core push hands training at our school.
yangchengfu04
 
Posts: 41
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 7:01 am
Location: yangchengfu04@yahoo.com

Postby The Wandering Brit » Fri Dec 17, 2004 2:34 pm

Not yet, I have done some single and double static push hands, next up is, I believe, Da Lu.

Hi Laton13 - have you had the chance to see Mr Ding in action yet?
The Wandering Brit
 
Posts: 60
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2004 6:01 am
Location: Colchester, United Kingdom

Postby laton13 » Fri Dec 17, 2004 3:19 pm

Hi Yangchengfu04 and The Wandering Brit,
I haven't done dynamic push hands but this maybe because I'm still at too low a level or because my teacher calls it something else. My own experience with push hands is the same as The Wandering Brit’s.

Yangchengfu04 I would be very interested if you could give a short description of dynamic push hands and how it differs from the other types of push hands.

I had the pleasure of attending one of Mr. Ding’s weekend seminars in Dublin a few years ago, Sifu Ding’s skill and ability was amazing and I was really impressed by what a pleasant and down to earth person he was. Like you I was overwhelmed but really inspired to practice. Sifu Ding was very encouraging to us beginners. Unfortunately I was at too low a level to really get the most from the seminar. I am planning to go to Sifu Ding’s next seminar in Ireland.

Just have to say that I think this is a great forum. I only recently found it and already have used some of the information in the thread on ‘Practice Time and Form Repetition’ to improve my own daily practice.
laton13
 
Posts: 2
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2004 6:01 am
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Postby yangchengfu04 » Fri Dec 17, 2004 4:14 pm

Laton, since my interpretation may be wrong or misleading, here's what Vincent Chu writes about dynamic push hands......

After one understands the characteristics of Tai Chi Chuan's neijing, the next step is to develop this incredible power. In Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan, this tangible training involves the method of Dynamic Push Hands. It is also known as fitting the power to the students. The method involves the teacher applying just enough power against the student each time so the student utilizes all resources and possibilities while working under pressure. Although this appears to be simple, a skillful instructor is always able to apply just the right amount of power for the student to work with at level of difficulty that encourages maximum growth.

Although the process is slow and time consuming, the method is much better than working with free weights because it is a complete training that involves the whole body. It develops a live power known as 'jing', not the physical power known as 'li'. The neijing one develops has strength and flexibility, which are other important elements in martial confrontations. At the same time, this method is a form of mental training which toughens one's will and truly prepares the practitioner for the martial art's vigorous physical activity.

In the exercise, the teacher patiently and persistently applies a set amount of pressure on the student. The student feels the pressure and mobilizes the whole body and all resources to work against this pressure. This type of practice will increase the student's neijing, the strength of the ligaments, tendons, bones and muscle groups, and also ones confidence (gained from the confrontation experiences). After one has mastered the basics, an experienced practitioner moves to the next step, improving the student's practical experience, and developing offensive and defensive maneuvers in each movement. The student gains experience in how to react and neutralize under different situations and conditions. The exercise is conducted in a controlled environment so it is safe and injury free. With more practice, the push hands exercise will correctly guide and direct the student to San Sau or Free Sparring training. It is a true method of bridging the Solo Form and Free Sparring. This is why a true transmission always involves oral instruction to point out the mistakes immediately. As a student, when one works with the teacher, one must expend all of one's options, so the intent, power and technique will be incorporated together to create a powerful push.

The Dynamic Push Hands exercise, commonly involves the techniques of press vs press; press vs ward off; and press vs shoulder strike to developed the student's naijing. At the beginning, the student should not be nervous. He or she should try to relax, and pay attention to all the concepts. Next, when one feels the pressure from the teacher, one should not be afraid, but rather, should apply the technique of warding off to work against the pressure as best one can. Throughout the exercise, one should keep the body relaxed and have a firm posture, mobilize all the neijing to maintain balance, prevent the teacher from getting too close, and try to maintain this position and condition as long as possible. In this way, the student will develop neijing.

The most common technique is to push the teacher's shoulders. This is the most common and difficult training method used to mobilize the power into the fists. If a student practices this exercise long enough, and focuses on the arm, the opponent will feel the sinking, heavy, elastic and powerful neijing. This exercise appears to involve the physical power, but it is very effective and practical training method which develops neijing-- which has components from physical power as well as qi power.

Dynamic Push Hands is a very physical and difficult exercise. It demands maximum effort from the student in each push. In each push, the student has to correctly align the body to maintain balance and push forward so the upper and lower body coordinate in unison and the power is focused forward. At the same time, he or she must pay attention to the breathing so the physiologic organs take proper rest. It is not correct to have tension all the time. The power developed from this exercise called neijing.

The neijing developed from this Dynamic Push Hands exercise is equivalent to one possessing a lethal weapon. In joint hands condition, if the opponent retreats, one follows with a strike, or discharges power to send the opponent flying away. If the opponent maintains balance, one should initiate contact to make the opponent lose balance. If one is able to correctly apply these two methods in opponent martial confrontation, one truly has a profound skill.
yangchengfu04
 
Posts: 41
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 7:01 am
Location: yangchengfu04@yahoo.com

Postby yangchengfu04 » Fri Dec 17, 2004 4:31 pm

Also, for those who have not read this article, I think this gets to the heart of the matter. I'm sorry to be such a copy and paste king, but it's tough for me to describe what I'm learning at this point in my development.


Pushing Beyond Chi
By Vincent Chu

How Yang tai chi's pushing hand exercises develop a purer and more devastating form of internal energy:chin (jing)power!

Of all the numerous articles about Yang Family Tai Chi Chuan which have appeared in many magazines, not one of them has done more than scrape the surface. Yang style is perhaps the most popular of the tai chi styles due to four generations of dedication to promoting the art. One great master of Yang style, Yang, Cheng-Fu, traveled all over China to promote the art. Although he taught thousands of students, he accepted only five people as formal disciples, and marked his eldest son--Yang, Sau-Chung--as his successor. Therefore, although many people claim to teach his Yang Family Tai Chi Chuan, there are only a very few people who are actually teaching the authentic art.

In order to distinguish between the popular and the traditional version, I shall call the latter classical yang style, as this is the only version that includes the complete transmission from Yang, Cheng-Fu. The popular version, due to the personal interpretations of generations of outsiders, no longer has any association with the classical version taught by Yang, Cheng-Fu and his eldest son, Yang, Sau-Chung.

The "pushing hand" aspect of the classical art is one of the least understood. The term "pushing hand" was originally used to refer only to the Yang style method of developing chin, power or strength. Later, other styles adapted this term. In Yang style, the pushing hand method includes eight fundamental postures and a special kind of power called "buoyancy power." This buoyancy power is unique of its kind among all martial arts; one can only find it in the system of tai chi chuan. It is the functional or applicational meaning of chin.


The Nature of Chin
One may ask what chin is and how it is developed. Chin is a common name referring to various techniques in pushing hand. It is similar to chi (internal power) except that chin is used and specifically developed in pushing hand exercises. Even if one practices chi, one may not have the strength to perform hand techiques. If chi is an internal power, then chin is a purer internal power. Chin is more advanced than chi; it evolved from chi and requires much harder work to master. Most people practice chi simply for health benefits. But people who practice chin do it not for health alone, but because it holds the martial aspects of tai chi chuan. Tai chi cultivates the vital chi in the body, but chin has to go beyond this. While pushing hand exercises practice with this vital chi, the fruit of this practice is called chin.

In the pushing hand exercise, neutralizing the opponent is not enough. You will not develop chin by this means because you are overcoming your opponent with your skill, not with your chin. But if you have chin, you can apply any of the eight postures and easily destroy your opponent. What follows is a brief description of the eight fundamental postures which use and develop chin power.

1) Warding off chin. The forearms, which possess chin, rotate outward. Because the form is composed mostly of this chin, it is necessary to understand it well. The function of this chin is to act as boundary line. Therefore, when you are doing movements such as ward off, closed hands, step up, and cross hands, you should not let the hands be too close to the body. If this happens, you will not possess chin on the forearms.

2) Pull backward chin. The palms, which possess chin, rotate inward. This applies to almost every movement which requires shifting the body's weight from a forward stance with or without bringing the hands back. There is a simple and a complex way of doing this. Neutralization is the simple way. You deflect the oncoming power of your opponent to the side as you move your hands and waist to the side. But this does not help to develop chin (strength) in your hands because your hands do not take any pressure from your opponent's oncoming power.

In executing the complex technique, your hands possess strength in contact with your opponent's hands, and you then bring your hands back slowly. You are storing strength and your opponent is giving up all of his strength. When he reaches his maximum stretch, he will fall on the ground with no strength left. This is complex, because your hands and arms must have enough strength to cope with your opponent's forward stance advantage. If you are not careful, you will end up using power vs. power.

3) Press chin. Two hands together are applied in warding off chin. Strength is focused in the hands, rather than in the forearms.

4) Push chin The two hands, which possess chin, are focused on one specific point and applied in warding off chin.

5) Pull down chin The two hands, which possess strength with different force, are applied in the same direction. When this is used, the opponent will fall, no matter how strong he is. This is called "cool chin," because it occurs suddenly or unexpectedly.

6) Split chin The two hands, which store the warding off chin, apply it in opposite directions. Often the result is that the opponent spins like a whirlpool.

7) Elbow strike chin After the opponent has passed your hands, which are the first defense, apply the warding off chin with the elbow.

8) Shoulder strike chin After the opponent has passed your hands and elbows, which are the first and second defense, apply the warding off chin with the shoulder.


Pushing hand exercises the tendons and muscles, making them first soft, then elastic. Tai chi can only condition or tune up the tendons and muscles. However, pushing hand also stimulates them.

Chin is nurtured, not natural. It is hard to master because it goes from weakness to strength. In other words, chin grows only when two practitioners who are working together have unequal chin, and the weaker pushes the stronger. The hardest part of this kind of pushing hand practice comes when practitioners have to apply all the chin they possess. But after each pushing hand session, practitioners gain some chin. In the long run, one will gain a lot of chin. This is one of the reasons why it takes tai chi practitioners a long time to master the art and possess the chin or power. It is obvious that the strength possessed by Yang, Cheng-Fu or any other members of the Yang family is not a myth. People who do not believe the Yang's ability simply do not know the facts about them.

Pushing hand can be classified or divided into three stages, according to what it develops: chin or strength development; technique development; and application development--strength with technique.

1) Chin development. In this stage, students practice dynamic pushing hand. The term pushing hand was created to refer to this stage. Hands and legs are the major concern. The exercise is as follows: If A has more strength than B, then B applies press techniques against A everytime. However, when doing the solo form, strength does not really appear. Therfore, the solo form functions only as a warm-up exercise. This pushing hand exercise not only helps B gain strength, but also helps A gain strength, because when B presses against A, A has to maintain his balance and generate strength to overcome B's strength. A can apply warding off, shoulder strike and push techniques at first. Later, when strength increases, he can use any part of his body. You can see pactitioners' strength increase in this phase and their body's condition improve as well.

2) Technique development. In this stage, students focus on coordination, sensitivity, balance and techniques. These are four exercises that must be practiced in this stage: the basic jointed hand operation; four directions with active steps; and da lu--four corners and four directions. The basic jointed hands operation develops the student's sensitivity as he rotates his hands in circular motion. In four directions with stationary step exercise, the student practices the four major postures: warding off, pull backward, press, and push. In the four directions with active step exercise, the student practices the four major postures and the five steps. And in the four directions and four corners exercise, the student practices the pull down, split, elbow strike, anf shoulder strike postures. All the exercises here require body coordination and balance, especially the last two exercises. Therfore, when students practices these two exercises, the knees must be bent and they must pick up speed each time. The lead man has to be quick and the follower has to be able to catch up.

3) Application development. No definte exercise is required in this stage. Students practice according to the strength and techniques they have each developed in the first two stages. If A is stronger than B, A control every move of B. The more strength A has, the easier it looks for him, and the reactions of B look as if they were preplanned. It is hard for onlookers to believe that B's ability to respond to a much stronger opponent is genuine. Because of this, many stories about the Yang family members developed.

Pushing hand is the martial art aspect of tai chi chuan. Therfore, it cannot be done all "soft" like the popular version of yang style. I think we should abolish the popular version and let the classical version carry on, because this is truly the most famous yang style tai chi chuan.
yangchengfu04
 
Posts: 41
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 7:01 am
Location: yangchengfu04@yahoo.com

Postby The Wandering Brit » Fri Dec 17, 2004 4:47 pm

That sounds very interesting YCFO4 - like Laton I am still very much a beginner, but we do do something that sounds like the basis for what you talk about - in standing Chi Gung practise the teacher will gradually apply pressure firmer and firmer, so the student has to root and, depending on whether the posture is an opening or closing one, spiral outward into the instructor.

Sound familiar?
The Wandering Brit
 
Posts: 60
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2004 6:01 am
Location: Colchester, United Kingdom

Postby yangchengfu04 » Fri Dec 17, 2004 4:58 pm

WB, that sounds similiar but I'm not too sure. I haven't done that particular practice so I can't say for sure. I have a feeling there is more than one way to train these concepts and practices, but then again, what the heck do I know!
yangchengfu04
 
Posts: 41
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 7:01 am
Location: yangchengfu04@yahoo.com

Postby Bamenwubu » Fri Dec 17, 2004 5:00 pm

Yangchengfu04,
These articles by Vincent Chu are very much the same philosophy I heard espoused by another major family of TCC that I used to train in the before time.
Very interesting.
I have very, very little personal experience of Yang syle push hands, limited only the what Bill has shown me so far.
He has promised to show me more after I get back from my trip, though and I am greatly looking forward to that.
I am now intrigued as to what I will see when I visit with Sifu Dimitri Mougdis.
This is going to be very interesting, and hopefully fun for both of us.
I only wish I had more skill in Yang style so that I would have more to show him.
But, I'm only me. A lowly beginner.
I will, however, do my best to represent the Louisville Center, and try not to emberass us too much.
Image

That said, I'm outta here!!!
I leave work in one hour, I leave for Florida at 6 a.m.
I will not, however, make it to the right coast of Florida, where I will visit Sifu Mougdis at the school, until sometime next week, and it may be early the following week before I see him.
I will, most likely, not be able to report back on my experience there until the 3rd or 4th of January, when I return.
I will post then, if not before.

Happy Holidays, to all of you.

Bob
Bamenwubu
 
Posts: 184
Joined: Mon May 03, 2004 6:01 am
Location: Frankfort, KY, USA

Postby yangchengfu04 » Fri Dec 17, 2004 5:31 pm

Hey Bob,

One last note, I believe the more advanced people show up later in the evening, so if you want to see some action, after 7:00PM would be your best bet.
yangchengfu04
 
Posts: 41
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 7:01 am
Location: yangchengfu04@yahoo.com

Postby Bamenwubu » Fri Dec 17, 2004 5:58 pm

Glad I looked back here.
YCF04,
Dimitri told me the same thing.
I actualy plan to show up righ at 4:30 and stay through the session.
I want to see the beginners through the advanced students.
I figure that way I will get a better idea of the progression of their training methods.

Thanks.
Catch you next year!
Bamenwubu
 
Posts: 184
Joined: Mon May 03, 2004 6:01 am
Location: Frankfort, KY, USA

PreviousNext

Return to Miscellaneous

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 3 guests

cron