Older Yang variations and lineages

Older Yang variations and lineages

Postby mls_72 » Thu Jul 22, 2004 8:51 pm

Just browsed the internet on other Yang lineages out in the world and what they are selling. I copied an pasted some of the info. from vcd's and dvds. curious of what others think? legit? worth observing the differences?

1. Lineage from yang shou hao- to chang yiu-chun- to earl montaigue

The Old Yang Style Long Form, The Large San Sau, The Pauchui , The Small San Sau, The Old Yang style has a Long Sword and Hidden Dagger Form a Short Stick Form and a Short Stick San Sau (a two person fight sequence) and a Sabre Form and a Spear Form.

2. Lineage from yang pan hao- to wang jiao-yu- to kou lien ying-

Guang ping form 1 and guang ping form 2 cannon fist. Old yang variation from guang ping prefecture in yongnian county- home of yang family.

3. Lineage from yang pan hou to sun jixian- wang jiaoyu
By Jiang Jian-ye. He teaches a 64-form from grandmaster Sun Jixian, who learned from Wang Jiaoyu, an indoor student of Yang Banhou. The spear is a classic T'ai Chi weapons routine. Jiang teaches spear techniques and then teaches the movements, step-by-step with multiple repetitions and angles. There are reviews of segments and a demonstration

4. Lineage of Yang lu chan/yang pan hoa- fu Jiechen- xiao gong-zhou – Xiao Tieseng

a very rare Funei (Imperial) branch of Yang style Taijiquan from Fu Jiechen. This set of VCDs is presented by Xiao Tieseng, son of Xiao Gongzhuo and current inheritor of the style; it focuses on Imperial Yang style Taijiquan. According to practitioners of this style this was the original art that Yang Luchan taught just after he arrived to Beijing, and which included ten sets. The versions popular now were all modified by Yang Banhou (Yang Luchan's son), who was upset that his father taught the complete art openly, and decided to spread a trimmed version that had only one Large Frame set. While this story is hard to verify, this set presents a rare version of Yang style and introduces many methods not existing in its more popular branches.
5.Old Frame of Yang Style Taijiquan (Lao Jia, emphasizes internal strength, the movements are light, soft, power is hidden inside); (3 discs/2 boxes), USD20.00 (Sh&H not included)
6.Small Frame of Yang Style Taijiquan (Xiao Jia, with compact stances, sudden changes of speed, fast footwork and hand techniques); (2 discs/1 box), USD13.50 (Sh&H not included)
7.Yang Style Taijiquan Long Fist Boxing (Chang Quan, each part of the routine can be practiced separately on both sides as single drills; each of its movements is composed of four elements: Raising, Supporting, Turning, Closing); (1 disc/1 box), USD9.00 (Sh&H not included)
8.Thirteen General Postures of Yang Style Taijiquan (Shi San Zong Shi, very rare routine based on movements of thirteen animals: lion, snake, magpie, monkey, tiger, crane, bear, toad, dragon, phoenix, chicken, cat, and horse; related to Taoist internal elixir methods, hence it is also known as the Method of Thirteen Elixirs); (1 disc/1 box), USD9.00 (Sh&H not included)

5. Lineage from Yang Chein hou to He Shouyan to Wang Dian Chen

Yang Style Taijiquan, the most popular style of Taijiquan, has developed into many branches of which the one coming from Yang Jianhou is relatively unknown. Yang Jianhou, son of invincible Yang Luchan, did not have many students, and even less became his in-door disciples and received full transmission. This set is probably the first video material ever showing this style as taught by Yang Jianhou to He Shouyan, Yang's disciple, often referred to as "Middle Frame" of Yang Style Taijiquan. Presented by Wang Dianchen from Beijing, who learnt from He Shouyan for over 25 years, this set explains details of both empty hand and weapons routines of Yang Jianhou's system, showing many unknown sets and methods:
1."Traditional Routine of Yang Style Taijiquan in Thirteen Postures as taught by Yang Jianhou" (Yang Jianhou Chuan Yang Shi Taijiquan Chuantong Taolu Shi San Shi, rare traditional routine in 87 movements different - in movements, powers, practice method - from popular Large Frame taught by Yang Chengfu); (3 discs/3 boxes), USD18.00 (Sh&H not included)
2."Thirteen Animals Routine of Yang Style Taijiquan as taught by Yang Jianhou" (Yang Jianhou Chuan Yang Shi Taijiquan Shi San Dan, this traditional routine based on movements of thirteen animals is presented to the public for the first time ever); (1 disc/1 box), USD8.00 (Sh&H not included)
3."Yang Style Taiji Straight Sword in Thirteen Postures as taught by Yang Jianhou" (Yang Jianhou Chuan Yang Shi Taiji Jian Shi San Shi, old straight sword routine in 54 movements); (1 disc/1 box), USD8.00 (Sh&H not included)
4."Yang Style Taiji Spear in Thirteen Postures as taught by Yang Jianhou" (Yang Jianhou Chuan Yang Shi Taiji Qiang Shi San Shi, rare spear routine of Yang Jianhou system); (1 disc/1 box), USD8.00 (Sh&H not included)

6. Lineage or Yang chein hou/Yang shou hao to Wang chonglu to wang Yongquan to Wei Shuren

Explanations of Neigong (Internal Skill) principles - excerpts from the book "The True Teachings of Yang Jianhou's Secret Yang Style Taijiquan" by Wei Shuren. Wei Shuren, Yang Style Taijiquan expert from Beijing, in this book wrote down the teachings that he had received from his teacher, Wang Yongquan, and for the first time revealed many secrets of Yang family martial art. Wang, although formally disciple of Yang Chengfu, learnt the style from his father Wang Chonglu (Yang Jianhou's disciple) as well as Yang Jianhou and Yang Shaohou. In his teaching he stressed the importance of using the Intent (Yi) to guide the movements and considered it a decisive factor to develop Nei Jin - Internal Strenght. This translation contains the detailed description of basic requirements for Yang Style Taijiquan practice with strong emphasis on the use of Intent. It is interesting to see how different they are from what Yang Chengfu taught (and was written down by Chen Weiming); one has an impression that Yang family kept secrets of their style very well, and only thanks to people like Wang Yongquan and Wei Shuren we can have a better look at the deeper aspects of Yang Style Taijiquan that for many decades used to be known to only a very few.

7. Yang chen fu to Xu minshan
By Jiang Jian-ye. Yang short staff.Part 1. He teaches the first 60 of 104 movements in this from created by Xu Minshan, an indoor student of Chengfu., in 1974. It combines the essences of Yang family Tai Chi and characteristics of Yang family staff.



[This message has been edited by mls_72 (edited 07-22-2004).]

[This message has been edited by mls_72 (edited 07-22-2004).]
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Postby oldyangtaijiquan » Thu Jul 22, 2004 9:54 pm

In my (re)searching I found that the only "old" and "authentic" Yang style is the style that was teached by Yang Cheng Fu (the others are mainly fakes). Some "masters" of the "Yang" style (not of Yang Cheng Fu's lineage) try to unjustifiedly discredit Yang Cheng Fu sytle to promote their own style, but they don't know the real Yang Taijiquan! The Yang style Taijiquan as a martial art was preserved only by the "traditional/ortodox" lineages and only few disciples of Yang Cheng Fu transmited the Yang Taijiquan martial art aspect (such Tung Ying Chieh, Yang Sau Chung, Chen Wei Ming and Fu Zhong Wen).
Don't waste your time, the Yang (Cheng Fu) style is the only way!
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Postby Wushuer » Thu Jul 22, 2004 10:20 pm

Well...
Let's just say that I have to agree that YCF may have passed down one of the only standardized, therefore reliably transmitted, forms of Yang family TCC.
I cannot agree that it is the "only way".
The fact that the Wu family has plenty of good teachers out there passing on the Yang Ban Hou lineage says there are still other ways to find genuine TCC of an older Yang style lineage, all by itself.
It's certainly the best way you'll find in MOST of the world, but not, by far, the only.
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Postby Polaris » Fri Jul 23, 2004 2:15 am

I am always suspicious when a school has to insult another school to promote themelves. I had a discussion once with a guy claiming to be from a "secret" lineage that was promoting itself like crazy, he was saying that the Yang family doesn't teach this and they don't teach that and I asked him: "So, how long did you train with them?" He said that he had never trained with the Yang family and so I had to ask him how he knew so much about what they teach or don't teach then... "Well, I heard this and others say that..." and the discussion sort of died at that point. It wasn't very convincing.

-P.
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Postby oldyangtaijiquan » Fri Jul 23, 2004 6:16 am

Maybe is not the only way, but is sure the right way.
Yes, there are also others good TJQ styles, but are also many more bad TJQ styles. Many of the "secret" styles are not Yang styles but only its derivations or authors personal interpretations.
I choosed the "Yang Cheng Fu" style (maybe is not the best, but is surely one of the betters) because I want to practice a verified martial art.
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Postby mls_72 » Fri Jul 23, 2004 4:42 pm

I dont want to get into a heavy conversation about styles and lineages here on the Yang family website. I just want to throw out what is out there as Yang taiji. As a practitioner of the 'standard 103' currently being taught by the 4th and 6th generation masters here in the USA, I still want to add to my Yang taiji library what other people are doing. It doesnt mean I have to go out and train in everything I see. It is better to know one thing really well and develop good kung fu skill than know alot superfically. Taijiquan is a slow progression.
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Postby Wushuer » Fri Jul 23, 2004 5:30 pm

MLS,
Neither do I wish to engage in heavy conversations regarding lineage, but when I see what appears to be disparagement of other styles I tend to get a bit "testy" about it.
I will leave that for now, however. I have said my piece.

Are the differences worth observing?
In my opinion, yes.
That's just my opinion, however.
I feel that way mainly because of the fact that I'm "multistyled" and have learned much from each of the styles I've studied, and beyond that much from the different teachers of the different styles as each teacher has his own way of doing things, his own agenda and his own personal style.
However I am of the opinion that there are so many flavors of TCC that each will have something to teach us if we observe it, recognize the differences to what we are doing, and maybe experiment a little with that different flavors techniques to see if they are or may be suitable for us.
What doesn't work will quickly become clear, what does will stay with us.
That said I do agree that once you have found a style that works for you, you will be much better sticking with it and learning it as deeply as you can.
This does not, in any way, mean you can not learn from others whose main focus is a different style.
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Postby oldyangtaijiquan » Sat Jul 24, 2004 7:19 am

Wushuer, I talked about the various "Yang lineages" not about the other styles!
Wu style is not a Yang style, but a modification of the Yang Pan Hou's (and Yang Lu Chan's) "small frame" made by Wu Jian Quan (and Wu Quan You).
Also many of the above "lineages" and styles are not genuine Yang styles but only modifications.
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Postby Wushuer » Sat Jul 24, 2004 11:01 am

OYT,
Whether Wu style is a Yang style lineage or not is open for debate to some, but not to me. I have never heard the Wu's claim it was otherwise.
What is a lineage? Why is Wu style not a Yang style in your opinion?
If it came from Yang Ban Hou, as you incorrectly claim, then it is a Yang style.
But consider the history of Wu style. Wu Chuan You was a student of both of Yang Yu (Ban Hou), who taught him the large circles, then of Yang Fu Kui (Lu Chan), who taught him the small circles.
Wu style is small circle Yang family TCC, but is not Ban Hou style. WCY did not learn small circle from Ban Hou, when Chuan Yau was Ban Hou's student, Ban Hou taught him only the large circles, he learned small circle TCC from Lu Chan and that is what the Wu family teaches today. The Ban Hou temperment was passed to Wu Chuan Yau, perhaps, but the TCC that the Wu family teaches today they got from Lu Chan.
So a Yang family lineage, with some tinkering by Wu Chien Chuan, who was given permission, and even encouragement, to do so by his Master, who was undoubtedly a Yang style practitioner, his father, Wu Chuan Yau.
Yang Cheng Fu also altered the forms of his father and his father before him. Does this make it no longer a "true" Yang style?
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Postby Polaris » Sat Jul 24, 2004 3:15 pm

Maybe this will help.

Modern Wu style and modern Yang style are two different things. There has been enough water under the bridge to make the distinction worthwhile. 100 years ago, when the Yang bros., the Hao family, Wu and Sun were all training, the differences weren't as systematic. Each instructor had their own unique attributes, and Wu's form was probably no different from Yang Shao-hou's than Yang Ch'eng-fu's was. They were still different, but everyone's form was a bit different from everyone else's in those days. It wasn't until the Beijing Physical Culture Research Institute days (1914-1928) that Yang's and Wu's training methods began to become systematized. They had more students to teach, so they established parameters for their students' teaching to help insure consistency in their classes. This is the origin of the concept of "style." Nowadays we have separate schools where once it was one school, and each school has its own curriculum, which may have had a common ancestor, but is still quite different in practise. so the way my teachers say it is, there is one T'ai Chi, but five good ways (the family systems) to get there.

As far as the modern Yang family, if I wanted to learn their system, I would train with them, period. None of the offshoot branches would interest me if I had the opportunity to learn from Yang Zhenduo's school. They wouldn't very likely interest me even if YZD's generation weren't around, with the possible exception of the Fu Zhongwen or Dong family schools (who would at least be worthy of a visit IMO because of their history). CMC style or other lineages with multiple generations between them and the family proper don't have the quality control that I would want.

Cheers,
P.
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Postby oldyangtaijiquan » Sat Jul 24, 2004 7:40 pm

d 1) Nobody knows Chang Yiu Chun! My opinion is that Erle learned that stuf from someone but none from Yang Shao Hou's disciple.
ad 2) Guang Ping Style is an early "Yang" style, made before the Yang family purifyed Taijiquan of external Chen elements.
ad 3) and 7) I have my own opinion about the omniscience of Jiang Jian-ye.
ad 4) The Imperial (Funei) Yang Style is a martial art that derives from the Yang Lu Chan teaching in the Imperial court and is a mix with others martial arts.
ad 5) and 6) There are many martial arts from Yang Chein hou's and Yang Pan Hou's lineage but why they are all different? Maybe because are personal interpretations of various masters.

Wushuer, the "old" Yang style of Yang Lu Chan and the "old" Wu style of Wu Quan You were very similar (Yang Small Frame). After Wu Jian Quan changed a little his style (maybe to distinguish it from the Yang style) and developed what is today known as the Wu style. The Yang Cheng Fu didn't made big changes of the his family (Yang) style Taijiquan.
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Postby Wushuer » Fri Jul 30, 2004 3:11 pm

Polaris,
Thanks for that clarification, I can't say I agree with it completely, but at least the Wu family stance on the concept is made clear to us.

Having just returned from the Louisville seminar, where Audi and I finally met in person (Hi Audi!), I can tell you that Master Yang Jun is very much worth learning from. I have never seen his grandfather, GM YZD, teach, but if it was anything like M YJ, I feel it would be very worthwhile to train with him.
Master Yang Jun's forms are amazing to watch, he is very clear in his presentation, very precise in his forms and a kind natured, good humoured task master whose teaching lead us all to greater understanding of our forms and ourselves.
In other words, I was impressed. Completely different from any of the Wu family seminars I attended. Not better or worse, just different. I had a very good time and learned more than I think I realize yet.


OYT,
Wu Chien Chuan didn't really make as many alterations to the Wu forms as did Wu Kung Yi, who created the "segmented" form along with his brother, Wu Kung Cho and his disciples. But that's neither here nor there for this discussion.
You are very wrong about YCF and his forms. Master Yang Jun took some time to explain what YCF did with his families forms during the seminar, even going so far as to show some of the changes he made and explain the differences. GM YZD also made some changes, Master Yang Jun himself has made some minor changes.
That's how it works.
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Postby oldyangtaijiquan » Mon Aug 02, 2004 12:17 pm

I didn't said that YCF did't made any change to the TJQ, but only that he didn't made big changes. My opinion is that Yang style TJQ was at generations between Yang Lu Chan and Yang Cheng Fu at his apex, and their changes of the art were legitimate. Too many made inexcusable changes to the TJQ! Too many masters/instructors made their own changes and their version of the Yang TJQ. I don't approve this!
The Wu style (as the Yang style) was developed by real masters and is a complete martial art.
I have my own opinion about changes of the Yang style TJQ after YCF, but I don't like to discuss about this. Too many changes in the past are the reason that the majority of the TJQs look stupid and not useful as a martial art.
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Postby Michael » Mon Aug 02, 2004 7:50 pm

Wushuer,

Posted by Wushuer
"Master Yang Jun took some time to explain what YCF did with his families forms during the seminar, even going so far as to show some of the changes he made and explain the differences."

Do you think you could share some more on this subject? I for one would be very interested in what he had to day.
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Postby Wushuer » Mon Aug 02, 2004 8:03 pm

OYT,
Ah, I see.
Well, I don't know that I'd say the changes made to their forms by Masters are the real problem with the art today.
I have no problem with a true Master of TCC making changes to the form he practices or teaches, as long as it's a true Master of TCC who is doing it.
See the difference?
The problems don't come in when a true Master makes an alteration, because the alteration of a true Master is going to be minor and mostly due to his wanting to emphasize a certain, differing intent to a move than his Master used.
This is usually minor and the motion can always still be easily utilized for it's original intended purpose.
No problem to anyone.
You run into problems when someone who is not a true Master decides he knows enough about TCC to make changes, and then passes on those changes as being true TCC.
These changes will be major and obvious, and usually quite ineffective.
A big problem for everyone.
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