Yang Lu chan in chen village

Yang Lu chan in chen village

Postby mls_72 » Thu May 19, 2005 3:07 pm

Did anyone ever figure out what Chen Style Yang Had practiced in chen village. some people speculate it was laojia (old frame) other have said it was xiaojia- (Small Frame) Chen. It cant be xinjia (new frame). anyone know?
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Postby shugdenla » Thu May 19, 2005 8:21 pm

From what I have seen in posture definition, it seems to have been xiaojia. as i look at the frame and posture, it appears to match present day Yang style.

Yang style could have developed independently and matched what is known as xiaojin due to Chengfu's large frame.
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Postby Polaris » Fri May 20, 2005 2:06 am

I believe that we can only speculate what was going on back then. There is a tradition handed down by my teacher's family that before the time of Yang Ch'eng-fu and Wu Chien-ch'uan (who famously standardised their forms in order to facilitate more consistently teaching large numbers of people) the T'ai Chi forms were much more individual, based largely on body type. The basics were the same for everyone, but an individual's expression of them was determined by whether they were large or small, tall or short, etc.

So, we can only safely say that Yang Lu-ch'an originally learned Ch'en Chang-hsing's form. If that form looked anything like what the Ch'en's are teaching now we can only guess. YLC probably changed what he learned over the years to suit his frame and his personal tastes (which he was certainly qualified to do, IMO) so that the divergence between styles that is still going on today began.

Even in schools with standardised forms, there are noticeable form differences between master level instructors, IME.
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Postby mls_72 » Sun May 22, 2005 12:29 am

Is that the final answer- xiao Jia?
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Postby mls_72 » Sun May 22, 2005 1:02 am

What exactly do scholars think Ch'en Chang-hsing's form looked like or style of Chen?


Polaris said:
So, we can only safely say that Yang Lu-ch'an originally learned Ch'en Chang-hsing's form. If that form looked anything like what the Ch'en's are teaching now we can only guess. YLC probably changed what he learned over the years to suit his frame and his personal tastes (which he was certainly qualified to do, IMO) so that the divergence between styles that is still going on today began."
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Postby oldyangtaijiquan » Tue May 24, 2005 9:10 pm

Originaly the Chen family martial art was based on the on Qi Jiguang general boxing (also known as Sung Tai Zhu Chang Chuan).
From Qi Jiguang's "The Canons of Boxing" Chen Wang Ting developed his seven routines of shadow boxing, borowing 29 of 32 postures. Also the words of Chen Wangting's "Song of the Canon of Boxing" were copied from Qi Jiguang's book. Copies of Qi Jiguang's book were found in the 1931 in Chen village.
At the time of Chen Chang Xing a outsider Jaing Fa taught him Taijiquan and his family didn't allowed him to teach Pao Chui (Chen family martial art). When Yang Lu Chan went to the Chen village Chen Chang Xing taught to him the martial art of the outsider (Jaing Fa). This art come became the Yang Taijiquan. Later in chen village the Taijiquan became the first routine and the Paochui became the second routine of the Chen style.
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Postby Audi » Tue May 24, 2005 10:49 pm

OYT,

I think you have concicely set forth the jist of one of the origin theories, but I have some questions about what you think it means.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Later in chen village the Taijiquan became the first routine and the Paochui became the second routine of the Chen style.</font>


Does this mean that half of Chen Style was Taijiquan and half was not? How do you suppose it became a unified art focused on internals? Is that how you understand Qi Jiguang's system to have been?
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Postby shugdenla » Wed May 25, 2005 10:22 pm

It is said that there is a Shaolin form that was used as a template for Chen style and it has most of its names today hence thought some people say Chen style is Daoist, its Buddhist naming convention sure tells alot.
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Postby Audi » Thu May 26, 2005 12:54 am

Greetings Shugdenla,

Do you happen to know the Chinese characters for Sung Tai Zhu Chang Chuan? I am curious about your mention of a "Buddhist naming convention" and the precise meaning and significance of this name.

Take care,
Audi
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Postby oldyangtaijiquan » Thu May 26, 2005 6:49 pm

Emperor Sung Tai Tzu (Chao Kuang Yin) in cca. 950 AD invented the Tai Tzu Chang Chuan (Grand Emperor's Long Fist) - today is known as "Chao Family Fist". It was also taught to the Shaolin monks and later become the (Shaolin) Pao Chui. Tai Tzu Chang Chuan is predominantly external set, with some internal attributes. Also some of his verions at advanced level uses dynamic tension. In the cca. 1560 general Qi Jiguang writed a book "New Book of Effective Techniques" (Ji Xiao Xin Shu) about the Shaolin Quan where the the 32 postures of Sung Tai Zhu Chang Chuan were presented. Chen Wang Ting created from it the foundation of the Chen Taji Quan style borowing 29 of 32 postures. Taijiquan (Wudang Neijia Quan) come in the Chen village at the time of Chen Chang Xing, when a outsider Jaing Fa taught him a martial art of his teacher from Shanxi (Wang Tsung Yueh). Because Chen Chang Xing learned from an outsider of the Chen village, he was not allowed to teach the Chen's family martial art and so when Yang Lu Chan came to the Chen village he teached the Jiang Fa's martial art that later became the Yang Taijiquan. Also in the Chen village Chen Chang Xing was not considered a master of Pao Chui and the Chen's didn't put him a tombstone in the Chen village training place where are all the tombstones of Pao Chui masters.

The cronology of the Chen style could be:
- (cca. 950) Emperor Sung Tai Tzu (Chao Kuang Yin) invented the Tai Tzu Chang Chuan
- (cca. 1550) Qi Jiguang writed a book where the the 32 postures of Sung Tai Zhu Chang Chuan were presented
- (cca. 1650) Chen Wang Ting created from it the foundation of the Chen Taji Quan style borowing 29 of 32 postures.
- (cca. 1700) Chen village was known for their Chen family Pao Chui
- (cca. 1800) Chen Chang Xing learned the martial art of Jiang Fa
- (cca. 1850) In the chen the Chen Family Pao Chui and Wudang Neijia Quan merged
- (cca. 1900) The Chens formed their "final" version of their martial art based mainly on Chen Family "Pao Chui"

The cronology of the Yang style could be:
- (cca. 1400) Zhang Sanfeng or someone alse created the basis of the Wudang Neijia Quan
- (cca. 1750) Wang Tsung Yueh writed the classic "Taijiquan Lun" (which include the same principles of the Chang Nai Chou's martial art) and taught his art to Jiang Fa
- (cca. 1800) Chen Chang Xing learned the martial art of Jiang Fa
- (cca. 1850) Chen Chang Xing taught his art to Yang Lu Chan
- (cca. 1900) The Yangs formed their "final" version of their martial art based mainly on Wudang Neijia Quan

There are many facts that confirm Taijiquan origins from Wudang:
- (cca. 1600) the biography of Chang Sung Hsi by Shen Yi Kuan (also published in Ningbo prefectural gazetter)
- (cca. 1650) the Epitaph of Wang Zhen Nan talk about the Nei Jia Quan and his author Zhang Sanfeng from Wudanga
- (cca. 1700) Gan Feng Chi "Nei Jia Quan" have many postures that are are in the Yang style but non in the Chen style
- (cca. 1700) Wang Xiling collected the works atribuited to Zhang Sanfeng in a manual "Full Collection of Zhang San Feng"
- (cca. 1750) Chang Nai Chou's martial art uses the same principles of the Yang Taijiquan (present in the Classics that the Chen's deny)
- (cca. 1850) Li Xiyue published the book "Complete Works of Zhang Sanfeng" (Zhang Sanfeng Xiansheng Quanji)

YANG TJQ DEVELOPEMENT:
In the book "Yang Style Taijiquan" by Yang Zhen Duo is written an article narrated by Yang Cheng Fu and recorded by Zhang Hong Kui ( http://www.sataichi.com/writings.html ): "In practicing taijiquan, one should first master and practice the "frame" as above mentioned (bare-handed forms), such as taijiquan shadow boxing and chang chuan (long shadow boxing); then one can proceed to single-hand pushing, one-site pushing, pushing with feet moving and free-hand fighting, and after a period one can take exercises with weapons such as Taiji sword, Tai ji scimitar and Taiji spear."
O.K., let say that this is the Yang TJQ curriculum, but where is today the "long shadow boxing"?
Look at the my analysis of the curriculums of the various Yang style lineages ( http://www.geocities.com/oldyangtaijiquan/curriculums.xls ). Any comment?

[This message has been edited by oldyangtaijiquan (edited 05-26-2005).]
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Postby cheefatt taichi » Fri May 27, 2005 6:48 am

Hi oldyangtaichiquan,

Thanks for the detailed and informative post, I enjoyed it very much. Just to add a little bit more...I've seen the original Chang San Feng Wudang taichichuan and it has striking similarity with Yang Cheng Fu's set. From where, it shed some lights to the possibility that what Yang Lu Chan learned from Chan family is not what is generally know as laojia Chen style Taiji.
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Postby Yuri Snisarenko » Fri May 27, 2005 10:16 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by cheefatt taichi:
I've seen the original Chang San Feng Wudang taichichuan and it has striking similarity with Yang Cheng Fu's set. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry, but I am skeptical about this. What daoist tradition does it come from (the name)? Any reliable background? The person who have been living in Wudang for several years and studied in monasteries several main daoist traditions (lineages) said that todays wudang styles are just a mess (from the perspective of any historical research).

I believe many have read Mr. Frantzis book "The power of IMA". The techniques and frame appearance are not as important as concepts. Two styles may look almost identically but one exponent may defend himself without brutish force, while other one just uses overt movements.

If you mean the sction about taiji-quan in the book ¡¶ÕÅÈý·áÌ«¼«Á¶µ¤Ãؾ÷¡· "ZSF taiji lian dan mi jue" it's not sufficiently substantiated to be considered authentic. Even the "Song of 13 taiji shi" is attributed to ZSF in it which is indeed of WZY - http://taijidao.webcindario.com/05estiloschino/wudangtexto9s.gif

http://taijidao.webcindario.com/05estiloschino/05estilchinowudang.htm


What I am trying to say is not an offence in any way. I respect your opinion but there are others who lived in Wudang (not in modern school recently build there) whose opinion I also appreciate and who don’t dare to make the connections between particular frame and living daoist tradition. The school outside of Wudang mountains may call itself "Original", "Wudang taiji" and so on. But we can only guess how old it is in actuality.



[This message has been edited by Yuri Snisarenko (edited 06-04-2006).]
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Postby oldyangtaijiquan » Fri May 27, 2005 2:48 pm

I writed a little on my page http://www.geocities.com/oldyangtaijiquan/zsftjq.htm
The texsts atribuited to ZSF were published (made public) before YLC (but nobody knows who realy writed them, but is said that was ZSF)!
The line drawings compared for the first time in the 1956 in the second part of the second book "Essence of the Daoist Canon" [Daozang Jinghua] of Xiao Tianshi titled Zhang Sanfeng Secrets of Taiji Elixir Training (Zhang San Feng Taiji Lian Dan Mi Jue). Is said that Xiao Tianshi found that drawings (and the writings) in his searching in the the taoist monasteries.
However there was many martial arts in Wudang and the style that was the source of the Yang style is only one branch! I believe that the Yang Family changed their art acording the manuscript that Chen Chang Xing (that he received from Jiang Fa) give Yang Lu Chan. Is said that YCF finished the work of YLC in the journey to give back TJQ to his origins. Also the YCF book uses the same postures of the line drawings that Xiao Tianshi found in taoist monastery.
How I said also the Chang Nai Chou (contemporary of Wang Tsung Yueh) martial art uses exactly the same principles of the Yang style Taijiquan and that we can find in the works of Wang Tsung Yueh.
This is only one theory that could be true (or maybe not) but as others can't be confirmed.

[This message has been edited by oldyangtaijiquan (edited 05-27-2005).]
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Postby WU » Fri May 27, 2005 3:33 pm

Greeting to all!

I am very interested in this subject and once asked Head Chief of Wudang Mountain, Master Zhong Yun-Long about the origin of Tai Chi. He hinted that Tai Chi in Zhao Bao has its root of Wudang’s Tai Chi. Chinese didn’t use family name for naming its martial art until the modern day. In the ancient time, they always named their art after a temple or place in respecting to their roots. Even Japanese and Korean would follow that tradition. Anyone who would claim one particular art as his or her family property or ownership, should be shamed of himself or herself. This all comes down to “greed and selfishness”. Look at all shameful things in martial arts that happen all around the globe!

Wudang’s Tai Chi has been known and well recognized among most of Chinese people including those great like Master Yang Lu-Chan & his families, Master Wu Yu-Xiang/Li Yi-Yu & his disciples, Wu Quan-You & his families and etc. Most importantly, the great Master Sun Lu-Tang restated his views on the Tai Chi history on his books. He’s the only great master who had been traveled all over China and had met most of the great masters of his time. He is the most creditable source for the truth.

The tradition of Wudang has clearly stated that the disciple of Wudang would pay respects to his root only, which is the great Zhang San-Feng and not to worship any teachers or masters. The student would study from his master for a few year then the master would ship the student to another master for more training until his maturity. Eventually, this student would be sent out to travel all over China. His master would give the student three gifts to remind his root. The first gift is the Fuo-Cheng(a short stick with a brush end), the second is the Wudang uniform and the last is the sword. No matter what difficulties the student would encounter on the road. He would look at the three treasures first then would try to overcome all his hardships. The last resource, of course, is the magical sword that he could use it to cut off all of his troublesome. This is a great tradition which has been followed for years up to now. Unfortunately, there are many charlatans out there. The public seems believe in those fake ones more but overlook the real history.

Could I ask anyone, who practices martial art, which system would be better? Yours or the real Wudang one? I guarantee that you may learn 70% or 80% of your master’s skill if you are the gifted one now. Most of students could get 40% of their master if they are lucky. That would tell us one important truth that family-oriented or one master system may be the main cause of the down fall of our Tai Chi in modern day. For those Tai Chi lovers, I sincerely encourage you to face the reality and have a common sense. Happy practicing and love live Tai Chi!

Wu
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Postby shugdenla » Fri May 27, 2005 3:45 pm

Audi,

I do not recall the names but 'oldyangstyle's' information seems pertinent. Chen did borrow the names from Shaolin Buddhist arts at the time and incorporated them into his vision of what we know today as Chen shi taijiquan.

Again, I do not recall the name of the person who did the comparison but they compared the Shaolin style names with chen names and there was a match per the names.

I do not agree that the Art of Jiangfa was taught to Luchan but it seems possible that it was incorporated into chen shi taijiquan, where Yang version 'morphed' away from Chen style mechanics and expression.

Yang may have had a different view, hence Yang shi taijiquan. like Quanyu, Lutang, Yuxian and others.
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