Interesting article

[Louis Swaim]

Greetings,

Yesterday I received my copy of the October 2006 issue of T’ai Chi Magazine. There’s a pretty good article about an old gentleman named Dong Bin who teaches in Shanghai. The article has some very good information about Dong Bin's personal learning history in the Yang tradition. One of the things Dong Bin mentions is that one of his early taiji teachers taught “jumping” practice. This sounds very much like what we’ve discussed here as “hopping,” or “sparrow hopping.” I once described my understanding of sparrow hopping as, “a way of maintaining your frame, and quickly re-establishing your equilibrium” when launched by a push hands opponent.

If anyone else happens to read this article, I would be interested in your impressions.

Take care,
Louis

[lao-pei]

Greetings Louis: This is Horacio.
I have not seen the article yet. I found this on line:
Master Dong Bin of Shanghai pushing hands in 2006.

For more information about Master Dong, check out our website, www.doubledragonalliance.com or email Rose Oliver at roseinchina2006@yahoo.co.uk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_xR32OJk0c&mode=related&search=

take care
horacio lopez

[Louis Swaim]

Greetings Horacio,

Thanks for finding these links. The hopping is what I’ve encountered. As is very evident, it is semi-voluntary. A better way of characterizing it is that it is cooperative. Some folks see this and mistakenly put it in the context of fighting, and think it is faked. However, the context is one of a cooperative exercise.

I also looked at the snip of Dong Bin’s form. It seems to be sort of an extended vamp on Grasp Sparrow’s Tail, rather than a bit of standard form. It seems to bear the influence of Dong Yingjie. It’s very fluid and enjoyable to watch, but certainly different from what I do.

Let me know if you read the piece in T’ai Chi, and if anything in it strikes you.

Take care,
Louis

[bamboo leaf]

figthing is not?

[Louis Swaim]

fragment is?

[bamboo leaf]

Fighting is not? I often wondered why one would consider it not to be cooperative. a little off topic just wondered.

FWIW haven’t read the article yet, I do feel the hopping is more a reflexive response to what is felt. I have never practiced it, but have experinced it, it’s the first time of hearing of such practice.


[This message has been edited by bamboo leaf (edited 10-26-2006).]

[Louis Swaim]

Greetings bamboo,

Ah. Sometimes I can’t find the meaning in your posts. Thank you for the clarification.

You wrote: “I often wondered why one would consider [fighting] not to be cooperative.”

I think that’s an interesting observation. To my thinking, once you begin fighting, it ceases to be cooperative. If you endeavor to cooperate, it’s no longer fighting. As Laozi said, “Because he does not contend, no one in the world can contend with him.” (ch. 66). I do think that self-defense can be cooperative and non-contentious. Once it becomes non-cooperative, it’s just fighting. That’s not what we’re interested in, is it?

Take care,
Louis

[bamboo leaf]

What I mean is that it takes two to fight, in this sense its cooperative.

(As Laozi said, “Because he does not contend, no one in the world can contend with him.” (ch. 66). I do think that self-defense can be cooperative and non-contentious. Once it becomes non-cooperative, it’s just fighting. That’s not what we’re interested in, is it?)

a first, thank you, I find not many share this view point which at times seems confusing to me when the issue of weather something was cooperative or not. It seems that many want to see contention but do not understanding an art based on non contention.

[Bob Ashmore]

Lous, BL,
Wow.
You guys just made my head spin.
I'd never considered EITHER viewpoint before.
More to think about on my stairs!!

Let's see if I can put this together:
Is "fighting" a cooperative venture or a non-cooperative encounter?
How does one gauge that? Is it my mindset that decides that?
And it just occurred to me that this might be the basis of the idea of following without resistance...
If it's non-cooperative, how do I then follow and not resist? But, if it's cooperative, though combative, can I use that to my advantage by following the mind set of the quote Louis provided to learn not to compete with an opponent but to "cooperate" with them instead?
Maybe I would be better able to follow and not resist if I am in a cooperative mindset and not a contentious one....?
Like I said, a lot for me to consider!

Now my brain hurts, but this seems to be a pretty major breakthrough from any previous way I've ever thought about "fighting" and I'm going to have to so some serious thinking about this idea.
I'm a pretty contentious guy at heart (I know, that's HARD to believe coming from ME, but it's true). I've been trying to find my way to "follow, not resist" for a LONG time, but with almost no success.
With the idea of cooperating with someone in order not to "fight" them, I feel I may be taking some steps on my way to figuring that bit out.
Thanks.

I'm going to have to break down and order Tai Chi Magazine. I haven't read one in years and I guess I'm missing quite a bit!

You guys have just blow away a lot of my preconceived notions.
Don't you feel the least bit guilty about that?



Bob

[Gu Rou Chen]

So, it’s all in the mind?

I’ll say so. Many folks who practice this stuff though, are often hesitant to say so. After all, it is kind of difficult to explain.

It’s all in the mind just like the stair that makes one hop when it is not there.


Jeff


[This message has been edited by Gu Rou Chen (edited 10-29-2006).]

[chris]

Considering the alternative, stumbling backwards and banging your head, you will understand why sparrow hopping is popular in many styles of martial arts.

-----
Chris
Martial Arts for Personal Development