Yang Tai Chi guy in Sanda Event

Postby mls_72 » Wed Oct 03, 2007 12:05 am

Audi-

The rules of the competition were Chinese Sanda rules- however it was at a Muay Thai event so the judges were unfamiliar somewhat. Pre-fight meeting a coach from the Nepalese Wushu team Certified that take down score more points and kicks and punches scored lower.

A clean throw is when you throw the guy and your still standing. If a guy throws and lands on top of the opponent it is the guy who initiated the throws scored the points. If a guy throws but end up on bottom, it is scored to the guy who was able to counter and win top position.

Clinches are not discouraged because you can score with knees to body.

As for how I accommodate both into my training? Taijiquan is my first martial art, the classic were the written material that serve as the template for the art. I dont bring judo, boxing, muay thai into it until 15 years later of Taiji practice. Yes I dabbled in Pakua, Xingyi, San shou, Chang Chuan, Chinese weapons, and Tui Shou during that time....but I found excitement with the sport of competition. What better way to improve my martial art than to train with champions of boxing, Muay Thai, Judo, and such. Training and fight study with different aspects of the same art of physical education.

There are similarities in the taiji classics and the theories these teachers show me. Taiji and boxing share the principles of 5 elements in taijiquan, that is in terms of movement left and right, back and forward, middle and balanced. The mechanics are the same in issuing power with proper structure. Competition is a chance to show how much quality a person has better over another- how much internal power, striking- hand and foot, throws and sweep, determination an athlete has.

Yielding-

How is it I think I am using taiji at all?
I'm moving my center, separating the weight, and transferring the power from my foot and leg through my hip and waist, up the spine and expressed out the hand.


[This message has been edited by mls_72 (edited 10-02-2007).]
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Postby Bradeos Graphon » Wed Oct 03, 2007 12:41 am

In an article by an eyewitness to 1954 affair who interviewed both participants, Y.L. Yip, in Qi - The Journal of Traditional Eastern Health and Fitness Volume 12 No. 3, Autumn 2002, Insight Graphics Publishers, Anaheim Hills, CA; Chen Kefu (the White Crane fighter in the clip "playing" with Wu Gongyi) was quoted as saying: "Do not think I cannot beat an old man. This Mr. Wu is not such a simple matter. His light chops like a 'baby fist' caused all these bruises." He was showing his students his bruised body after the contest.

Common knowledge of the 1954 affair is next to useless, because Taiji fighting isn't common. A person would have to be well versed in either White Crane or small circle Taijiquan to get much out of it. Also, the video is of poor quality and heavily edited, much detail, such as Chen bleeding profusely down the front of his shirt for most of the contest, is obscured.

Also from the article: "Wu also said that after the fight he returned to the dressing room. Senior student Shum Heung Lam was there. Changing clothes, (Wu Gongyi) let people inspect his body for bruises. Not one bruise or injury was found. A surprised reporter then asked 'Your opponent definitely hit you once, where is that mark?' Gongyi patted his abdomen below the navel and said 'the kick was upward from below, although it hit my belly it did not affect me. People who have witnessed the effects of qigong should appreciate this point.'"

The Wu style's shuai jiao like throws, joint locks and footsweeps were prohibited, so Wu Gongyi relied on an jin during the contest. White Crane's high kicks were also prohibited, and it was such a kick by Chen that led to the contest being called off in the 2nd round.
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Postby Bob Ashmore » Wed Oct 03, 2007 11:28 am

Yielding,
If you "do not see much tcc on display"...
Then perhaps you need to look a tad bit closer.
Wu Kung Yi is displaying quite a high level of TCC in this clip, especially considering the constraints he was placed under.
The rules of the event precluded much of what most people think they are going to see during "TCC fighting" and took away any of the sweeps and throws that the Wu family is famous for. It also disallowed much of what the White Crane style prizes in their art, so the playing field was definitely level in that respect.
Wu Kung Yi, working within the rules of the event, clearly showed enough skill with the art of TCC to soundly and decisively defeat an opponent half his age who was also undoubtedly one of the premier artists in his own field.
And to say that they were "only playing with each other" simply boggles the mind and cannot be replied to with much objectivity. I've rarely seen two people "play" that ended in quite that much blood.
There are better, clearer copies of this event available. One of Eddie Wu's training tapes has a much clearer, longer, less edited version of this event on it. I believe it is still available on his website. It may be worth your time to get a copy and see the entire event.
It's quite telling when you can clearly see the White Crane fighter begin to bleed heavily quite early in the event, while Master Wu continues to display a level of vigor that belies his age at that time.
If you still think this is not what constitutes TCC at the highest level, I'm not sure what else I can say.

Bob
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Postby Bob Ashmore » Wed Oct 03, 2007 11:36 am

Ah, Bradeos,
I see you have already covered the topics of my last post. And better than I did!
I should have known! ;-)

Bob
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Postby yielding » Wed Oct 03, 2007 6:14 pm

well, i took another good look at that video clip, and i still don't agree with what has been said. first off it repeats each round like two times, so some people may not be aware of that. the editing is extremely suspect, not that it matters really. it appears to me that the match was extremely close and i would call it a draw if i were scoring it. i don't know about any blood since i didn't see anything on his shirt or his face, but here's how i would score it.

Wu guy got in two strkes to the face of Chen (maybe three). but, he also lost his footing in the 1st round and went right thru the ropes!

Chen got two good kicks and one good smack in the face of Wu, but he turned his back and ran away everytime Wu got a whack in.

my opinion, i call it a draw. blood and bruises are beside the fact - if it really is true about Wu having no bruises and no blood, scrapes or cuts, and Chen was cut badly, then i could see how some people would say he is the winner.

still, i'm not so sure that this is what tcc fighting should look like. it looked more to me like two long-fist guys, since they both used extended arms and swung them around like shaolin.




[This message has been edited by yielding (edited 10-03-2007).]
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Postby Bob Ashmore » Thu Oct 04, 2007 12:37 pm

Yielding,
You've said it yourself: "i'm not so sure that this is what tcc fighting should look like".
If you do not know for sure "what tcc fighting should look like", how can you be so sure this isn't it?

For one thing, you cannot watch Chen Kefu to see what "TCC fighting should look like". He's not using TCC, he's a White Crane adept not a TCC Master.
Watching Master Wu, there can be little doubt to a trained observer that he is using TCC techniques. His "baby fist" strikes are clearly internaly generated.
I do not know what you think "tcc fighting should look like" but a pre-conceived notion can often disapoint once the real thing is observed.
I will stick with my last suggestion: find a copy of the original, unedited bout. Watch it.

My final point, Chen Kefu was not bleeding do to a cut. He was bleeding from his nose and mouth after a single strike to the midsection he received from Master Wu.

Regards,
Bob
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Postby yielding » Thu Oct 04, 2007 1:57 pm

the way fighting is described by the people who witnessed the early Yangs in "situations" does not sound anything like what happened in the Chen/Wu fight to me. usually, "encounters" were dealt with quickly and efficiently. i really don't think there was much "running around." you are right though, i do NOT know for a fact what it "should" look like, but i don't think you or much of anyone else does either. i'm no master, but i have a good bit of experience, and i find it condescending when you say "there can be little doubt to a trained observer that he is using TCC techniques." - perhaps you didn't mean to be offensive - if that's the case i apologize. again, i have to wholeheartily disagree with you, those strikes certainly were NOT internally generated, especailly since he was off balance or running forward as he was "trying" to strike." anyway, we'll have to agree to disagree, i don't buy it.



[This message has been edited by yielding (edited 10-04-2007).]
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Postby Bob Ashmore » Thu Oct 04, 2007 3:11 pm

Yielding,
No, I was not trying to be offensive. I can and have often been highly offensive when the occaission demanded it, but was not shooting for that this time. I can see no reason to be offensive in this type of situation.
Believe me when I say that if I had intended to offend you with my remarks, you would have had no room for doubt as to what my intent was by the time I was through.
If my remark about the "untrained observer" offended you, you will have to delve into your own reasons as to why it effected you that way. I cannot help you with that except to assure you that it was not my intention.

Unlike you, I do not know how "experienced" I could be called in the internal arts. I don't consider myself to be very good at them, certainly I need much more practice, but I believe I may be in a position to know them when I see them after a couple of decades studying about them with various schools, families and styles.
I have witnessed, with my own two eyes and not through second hand accounts from the distant past, sparring matches using exclusively TCC techniques by both participants. I've even been priviledged to participate in one or two such instances though I can't brag of any exceptional skill in the area.
I have also witnessed sparring between TCC adepts and external adepts. I have participated a few times in these type of things as well. Again, my win/loss ratio is nothing to brag on but I have never been in the art to become another Yang Lu Chan, I do it becuase I enjoy it and not really for any other reason.
Having had some small amount of personal experience in the matter, however poorly I performed, it may be that I am seeing things here differently than you are.
For one, I have no idea what you could be referring to when you state that Master Wu was off balance, and I have no idea where you ever got the idea that an internal strike could not be effectively delivered on the run.
Quite the contrary, actually. An internal strike can be delivered at any time, from nearly any position. Even when one is lying flat on ones back on the ground he can deliver quite an effective strike that has internal power behind it.
I've seen this demonstrated, and by one of Wu Kung Yi's own descendats, Wu Kwong Yu, the current head of the Wu family. I did not know, previous to his demonstration, that such a thing was possible. I doubt, sincerely, that I have the level of skill to do such a thing myself (no, I have never tried, I have a hard enough time doing those kinds of things with two feet solidly planted underneath me) but that does not mean that I don't know it can be done.
The Wu family practitioners that I have been priviledged to know taught me a saying for exactly this type of thing:
The more you know, the more you know that you do not know.

As for how an internal strike "look" to the observer:
You still have to extend your arm, make a fist and hit your opponent, whether you are using internal or external techniques this is the same. A hand strike still looks like a hand strike, even if there is internal energy behind it. I don't know what you thought you were going to "see" that would be so different but a strike just looks like a strike.
I certainly don't know any other way to strike someone with my fist other than to put it out there and hit the guy with it, but if you do I'd sure be interested in learning how.

However, as this topic has been explored ad nauseum on many forums, no concesus has ever been reached of which I am aware, I do not believe we will reach one here either.
Perhaps Bradeos, with his infinitely greater knowledge of Wu family Tai Chi Chuan, will have more telling ways of making things clear on the subject of how to visually tell the difference between an internally generated strike and one made using external techniques. However, I do not.
No two people will ever agree on what they have seen after they witness an event. We are living proof of that.
An agreement to disagree is perhaps the best that can be hoped for as you have made your disbelief in Master Wu Kung Yi's skill during this bout pretty clear. Since changing your mind has no real plus side for me...
I so agree.

Regards,
Bob
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Postby yielding » Thu Oct 04, 2007 4:40 pm

Hi Bob,

please don't be offended, i am only trying my best to understand what we are looking at. so we disagree, no big deal, maybe at some point i will see something else.

truthfully, i didn't think it possible to produce an integrated issue of energy (a fajin strike) without a firm contact point (meaning the ground/root or some contact with the ground in some manner) - but as you say this isn't necessarily true, so i will keep and open mind and look more into it.

perhaps some here can educate me on that particular process??

concerning my off-balance comment, i really can't see how you or anyone can deny that? please look again at the first round at the 2:00 minute mark when he goes right thru the ropes. maybe im not experienced enough to understand but that's what i see.
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Postby mls_72 » Fri Oct 05, 2007 10:54 pm

Yielding-

you said- "truthfully, i didn't think it possible to produce an integrated issue of energy (a fajin strike) without a firm contact point (meaning the ground/root or some contact with the ground in some manner) - but as you say this isn't necessarily true, so i will keep and open mind and look more into it.

perhaps some here can educate me on that particular process??"

The whole art of Pakuachang is based on the ability to strike with quick stepping and maintaining a root with a moveable center. Taijiquan and Xingyiquan have the same attributes.

Your ideology of taijiquan in combat is a romantic one, primarily based on an 80 year old man with long white hair and a long white beard able to evade and issue power to much younger pupils or enemies in Hong Kong kung fu flicks and other legendary stories of taijiquan masters. Image

Taijiquan has a front jump kick (Chen , Sun, Wu, Yang's removed it, but in old Yang frame) you might not be aware of..... you can strike someone and not be touching the ground.

matt



[This message has been edited by mls_72 (edited 10-05-2007).]
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Postby T » Sat Oct 06, 2007 3:15 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Bob Ashmore:
<B>Yielding,
You have obviously never seen this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8VbSc1r5UI

Enjoy! </B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have read through all the responses here so here goes.

I do not mean to cause an issue here but it was first more than a charity event and they were not just playing. The first person you see in this clip is Tung Ying Jie and this is my sifu's sifu and my sifu was at this event.

It was much like prize fight today and the taiji is Wu style and this fight is pretty much the reason my sifu has little use for Wu today. Many in the CMA world in that area at the time wondered why Wu Kung Yi fought at all. People paid big money for the tickets to see this fight and they were expecting good Chinese martial arts and it immediately turned into a brawl with no real CMA no taiji and no White crane just a fight. Most of the audience was booing and not at all happy.

There is little of anything here to call taiji it is just a brawl and as I said the audience was not at all happy, my sifu and his sifu thought it was a very bad display of martial arts and it is a poor example of what taiji is as a martial art, since there was none displayed.

Taiji as a martial art is yielding, redirecting and a whole lot of patients. You do not manufacture an opportunity you wait for one and you defend, redirect and yield until it appears. This is why when I spar or have spared with anyone else I have always felt it when they were going for a Qinna lock, and sometimes I can counter but if I do anything with my sifu I can never feel any hint of a lock coming and then I am locked. His response as to why is "I locked myself" meaning he was patient and waited while redirecting my force and he never ever was tense and always relaxed. No slapping no flailing just taiji.

Sanshou is certainly not taiji and you may be surprised at the similarities, or at least the similarities I have found in my training of the police/military version of sanshou. But sanshou, in all its variation (basically 2) is a very good fighting style that trains very hard to be just that and not to cause an issue on the Yang family site I will stop there.




[This message has been edited by T (edited 10-08-2007).]
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Postby yielding » Sat Oct 06, 2007 3:31 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by mls_72:
[B]Yielding-
Your ideology of taijiquan in combat is a romantic one, primarily based on an 80 year old man with long white hair and a long white beard able to evade and issue power to much younger pupils or enemies in Hong Kong kung fu flicks and other legendary stories of taijiquan masters. Image
[B]</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

that's cute, thx. yes, i do think a real tcc master should be able to evade and issue chi-energy at his opponent. tcc should not look much like any other martial art imho. just because you can't do it, doesn't mean it can't be done, or isn't possible. for cryin out loud, even the CMC student (i forget his name) fighting the professional wrestler displayed much more tcc skills than are in the Wu/Chen clip.
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Postby Bob Ashmore » Mon Oct 08, 2007 4:27 pm

Yielding, T,
You are in the wrong forum to be questioning the TCC skills shown in this clip by Master Wu Kung Yi.
Please go to a Wu family web site and address your questions\comments regarding your perceptions on his lack of skill during this bout directly to the descendants and their pupils of Master Wu Kung Yi. I feel quite certain you will get all the answers from them you could wish for.
If needed, you may contact me at my e-mail address and I will gladly forward to you the direct e-mail address of the current lineage holder of the Wu family, Wu Kung Yi's grandson, Wu Kwong "Eddie" Yu. Please feel free to address your concerns about his grandfathers lack of skill with him.
I feel quite certain that any of the students of the Wu family, or Eddie himself if he feels it worthwhile of his time, would be able to address these doubts you have as to the relative skill in TCC fighting techniques displayed by Wu Kung Yi in this clip.
Since it is their art you are questioning, along with the skill of one of their most revered family members, that really is the place to address any further questions or issues you feel you have with the Masters performance at the Macau fight.

I have nothing further on this forum to say on this issue and so this will be my final post here regarding it.
Since you are determined to insult the memory of a Master whose skill at his art is beyond question by anyone with the ability to understand for reasons I cannot comprehend (nor do I care about), there is no reason for us to discuss it further here on this, the Yang family forum.
If you are determined not to believe what you see and what history records, yet continue to denigrate it despite your admission to not having the knowledge to understand what is going on, then perhaps a student or Master of the families art you have questions about can educate you further on the subject.

Out of respect for both the Yang and the Wu families, I will no longer reply to this subject on this forum. Please do not waste your time by addressing me on it any further here.
If either of you has any further wish to address this issue with me, please be kind enough to take it off of this forum. My e-mail address is in my profile, if you feel the further need to discuss this issue with me, please do so there.
I will, however, not engage in any type of further "debate" with you on an issue on which you have clearly closed your minds. However I can and will, as stated above, be able to put you in direct contact with the man who would best be able to address your perception on the lack of skill being exhibited by his grandfather.

Good luck to you.

Bob
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Postby JerryKarin » Tue Oct 09, 2007 1:20 am

OK OK lets not get all in a huff over what we see in a video clip. I watched it several times. Note that they had 3 cameras and show you two rounds from 3 angles, that's why it seems to repeat. When I first looked I was puzzled, because it didn't look much like taiji. After a couple more views, it seemed to me that Wu won the fight. He controlled, he dominated. The other guy didn't dare let him get close. Just my opinion, for what it's worth.

[This message has been edited by JerryKarin (edited 10-08-2007).]
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Postby T » Tue Oct 09, 2007 3:40 pm

Bob Ashmore

Not looking for a response, since you said you would no longer respond here but I do feel the need to address a few things.

First sorry if I offend you but I am just telling you what was told to me by someone that "was there" and who has been training Yang Taiji for over 50 years (my sifu, not me, I have only been at this for 16 years). I am also telling you my views of what I have seen based on this clip. Sorry if you have taken offense but I do not agree with your assessment of that particular match.

And I would also like to point out that you were the one that made the statements about Wu’s skill based on the clip that you posted on the Yang family site in a Sanshou thread that I was responding to originally based on sanshou therefore I responded to you.

Also, I said my sifu has little use for Wu style but that does not mean that I have little use for Wu style. I did some Wu style years ago and I rather liked it but there are no qualified Wu style sifus within a reasonable distance of me so I did not continue training it. I also am rather fond of Chen, I liked it more than Yang actually, but again there were no qualified teachers near me at the time. I found my Yang taiji sifu who is/was a student of Tung Ying Jie therefore I ended up training Yang and I am happy I did.

But back to the clip; there was a major age difference between the combatants of that match, Sifu Wu was considerably older and the reason for the questioning by those that “were there” and those that saw that fight as to why he fought (originally, prior to the match) had nothing to do with skill and more to do with age. Many wondered why the younger Wu did not fight. It was a generational/respect thing at that time.

As to posting on the Wu site, I do not train Wu so I will not post there anymore than I would go to a Chen site and talk about Yang style.

T

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by JerryKarin:
<B>OK OK lets not get all in a huff over what we see in a video clip. I watched it several times. Note that they had 3 cameras and show you two rounds from 3 angles, that's why it seems to repeat. When I first looked I was puzzled, because it didn't look much like taiji. After a couple more views, it seemed to me that Wu won the fight. He controlled, he dominated. The other guy didn't dare let him get close. Just my opinion, for what it's worth.

[This message has been edited by JerryKarin (edited 10-08-2007).]</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe that was the outcome, the other guy got a cut on his nose, I believe, and Wu was declared the winner.



[This message has been edited by T (edited 10-09-2007).]
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