Yang taijiquan - random ring theory

Postby yslim » Sat Jul 19, 2008 3:24 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by mls_72:
xianhao said he threw in that fiction in the beginning to make the article interesting for the reader by drawing in your attention.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi mls-72

Thank you for clear the air. For awhile I thought Dr.Cheng is a wrong kind of Dr. In China we call this kind of doctoring-up thing in order to make a sales pitch doctor is "Wong Look Dr." (snake oil?) . If Rick Taiji School and readers has bought into his sale pitch, it will gives "American Tiaji" a bad name. Shame on him.If he is a Ph D, Higher education brings higher Taiji fiction. Then I rest my case.

Ciao,
lim
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Postby yslim » Sat Jul 19, 2008 9:11 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by mls_72:
<B>
-I dont understand your emotional rational on that Bob, but that was a pretty ignorant statement. Just because he put someone else's fiction based writing, a character that was obsessed to having the 'Random ring formula" as something of power, does not mean the article doesnt have important lessons for your martial arts practice.
The Yangs who owned some of the songs and poems on taijiquan studied the meaning in their practice is not something fictional nor a lie. You are saying that Yang Chen Fu and the song of the 'Random Ring Formula' are lies as well?

The study of 'Jin' and 'Fa jin' aren't fiction in my training. Maybe yours, but notmine. Be careful of someone doing a random circle on you during 'Tui Shou'.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Mls_72

My English is very bad ! My IQ is coming on a slow boat from China. But this is how I apply my Taiji listening energy to HEAR where Bob's is coming from...

Bob's statement as I read it:

"Well now...
FICTION WAS USED to try to DRAW the reader in.(period) so they can READ what is PRESENTED AS FACT.(period) but NOW that we KNOW that there was a LIE IN THE BEGINNING. (period) the REST can only be CONSIDERED...
FICTION AT BEST". (period)

My listening energy could only tell me Bob's 'jing' and 'structure' was on Dr Cheng's mixed package of fiction(insubstantial)and nonfiction (substantial) altogether at once, this is a low level skill of the awareness in Dr.Cheng's presentations. Who needs the trick of fiction for his beginning presentation to sales his nonfiction goods. And at the end he really expecting all of us to have Random Ring Formula wisdom to know the different? Is he pulling my Taiji leg?

Since I hear none of Bob's 'jing' or 'structure' is on the Yang Taiji itself. Therefore I can't borrow/use it against Bob for defaming The Yang Chen Fu and his owned Taiji songs are lies as well, nor Bob's statement was 'pretty ignorant' as you had stated. Pretty,Yes. But ignorant, I need some convincing. So please make my day.

Have a nice Taiji day
lim
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Postby Louis Swaim » Sat Jul 19, 2008 7:50 pm

Greetings Matt,

I didn't mean to cast any aspersions on your post. As I said at the outset, the commentary is quite interesting, and the Random Ring Formula is widely considered to have been transmitted by Yang Banhou. You explained the inclusion of the Jin Yong material, and that's fine. I tend to get a little nervous about the blending of fictional accounts with taiji-related materials, but it's understandable that some would find a reference by Jin Yong to some "Random Ring Formula" of interest. After all, Jin Yong probably is responsible for bringing large numbers of people to the study of traditional martial arts.

For those interested, the Random Ring text in question is translated as "The Secret of the Free Circle" in Douglas Wile's _T'ai-chi Touchstones: Yang Family Secret Transmissions_, p. 77, and by Yang Jwing-ming in the book I mentioned above.

*I should add that the Chinese text can be found in Yang Zhenduo's _Zhongguo Yang Shi Taiji_, p. 21.

Take care,
Louis

[This message has been edited by Louis Swaim (edited 07-20-2008).]
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Postby Louis Swaim » Sun Jul 20, 2008 4:48 pm

Here's the text in Big 5.

¶ÃÀô³Z


¶ÃÀô³Nªk³ÌÃø³q¡A¤W¤UÀH¦X§®µL½a¡C
³´¼Ä²`¤J¶ÃÀô¤º¡A¥|¨â¤d¤ç©Ûªk¦¨¡C
¤â¸}»ô¶i¾î½Ý§ä¡A´x¤¤¶ÃÀô¸¨¤£ªÅ¡C
±ýª¾Àô¤¤ªk¦ó¦b¡Aµo¸¨ÂI¹ï§Y¦¨¥\¡C


[This message has been edited by Louis Swaim (edited 07-20-2008).]
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Postby Louis Swaim » Sun Jul 20, 2008 5:13 pm

Greetings,

In an earlier post I wrote: "I'd be interested in knowing what the term 'integral jin' translates. Would that just be 'neijin,' or some other term?"

I think I found the answer in a posting on another board, which I believe included the Wu Mengxia commentary. Actually, the term "jin" doesn't appear in the Random Ring Formula. Wu's commentary refers to "quan li" and "ju li." These can be translated as "integral (or integrated) strength," and "local (or partial) strength." I kind of like this, as it supports my definition of taiji jin as "integrated strength/sensitivity."

--Louis
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Postby Bob Ashmore » Mon Jul 21, 2008 12:24 pm

MLS_72,

That's me, I'm a pretty ignorant kind of guy. You are hardly the first and I'm quite sure you won't be the last to let me know that.
It's a character flaw.

However whenever someone tries to apply a random ring against me, I yield, follow their energy and roll them right down onto their knees using their random rings against them in a spectacular show of taiji skill.
I'm just funny like that.

The "Secret of the Free Circle", which is the exact same thing as this "random ring" by the way, has been bantered around for quite some time. I believe Wile put it out there some time back in "Secret Transmissions, I know Yang Jwing Ming did in at least one of his books.
I seem to recall that one of the Yangs did as well in one of their books...
I'm not sure if it was Yang Zhen Ji or Yang Zhen Duo but I'm sure one of them did.
Since the experts have already expounded on the theory, I don't doubt it for a second.

Have a good day. Don't let your rings get too random though, they can be used against you.



[This message has been edited by Bob Ashmore (edited 07-21-2008).]
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Postby Bob Ashmore » Mon Jul 21, 2008 12:36 pm

Louis,
I see you beat me to the revelation of this being a reconstituted "free circle" passage.
And you even knew all the books and authors who've put it out there before.
Good on you!
It's too early in my day to remember that kind of detail, so I'm glad you're around to keep us up to date.
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Postby Bob Ashmore » Mon Jul 21, 2008 12:37 pm

Yslim,
Thanks. Your post is a gem filled with wisdom, as always.
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Postby yslim » Thu Jul 24, 2008 6:59 am

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bob Ashmore:

[B]MLS_72,


However whenever someone tries to apply a random ring against me, I yield, follow their energy and roll them right down onto their knees using their random rings against them
in a spectacular show of taiji skill.
I'm just funny like that.

Hi Bob,
Random Ring skill is already in the level of form-no-form,mind-no-mind. You have listed what to do if one apply Random Ring on you. that indicate you 'have mind' against 'No mimd' The secret of Random Ring is no mind, because it moves randomly. Maybe that is why it's so call.

Just in case you are getting too funny, I thought you might like to chew on this:

"George secrets Part 3 July 08
Welcome to MasterGeorgeXu.com last update 7/13/08

The Undefeatable theory is based on 24 principles.

1. Wu Wei (no effort) defeat You Wei (have effort). No Fist defeat have Fist. No Root defeat have Root. No technique defeat technique.
2. Nobody knows me, I know enemy defeat Everybody know me, I don't know my enemy.
3. Predator defeat Prey.
4. Unit force defeat partial force. Harmony defeat No Harmony.
5. Ying Yang balance defeat too much Ying or Yang.
6. Hard and Soft Harmony defeat too Hard and Soft Harmony.
7. No Root but every where is root defeat 3 feet root and floating root.
8. Shi has Nei Shi and Wai Shi. Have Shi defeat no Shi. Alive Shi defeat dead Shi. Big Shi defeat Small Shi. Understand Shi defeat don't understand Shi. Borrow Shi defeat being borrowed Shi.
9. Body middle section move first,Internal and external Shi arrive before hand defeat body hand together, body move, hand not harmony or hand arrive first.
10. Whole body is fist. Whole body harmony to one. Touch my body any point is touching my whole body defeat whole body is not one.
11. Open/Close, Up/Down, Sparrow/Turn, Empty/Full, Four become one defeat only one or two factors
12. Intelligence and scientific body art defeat ox power and unscientific body movements.
13. 3-D movement plus fast slow and empty full change (5 factor) defeat 1-D and 2-D movemen
14. Internal Shi no concave convex defeat have concave convex. Internal Shi defeat solid Nei Jing.
15. Chi defeat Jing. Empty agile defeat solid and firm.
16. Body volume attack defeat point attack. Physical inside energy field defeat physical outside energy field.
17. Yi before the fist, internal and external Shi before the fist defeat Yi after the fist, fist Jing before internal and external Shi.
18. Heaven defeat earth. Body mass in the sky defeat body weight on earth.
19. Maximum body art and spirit defeat no maximum body art and spirit.
20. Forget me defeat focus me.
21. Gravity at enemy's body defeat gravity on myself.
22. Big group muscle do the work defeat small group muscle do the work.
23. Internal defeat external.
24. Lower body martial art defeat upper body martial art.
Part 4. Coming soon !!! Any questions come to Master George's seminar.
Seminars

* Master George Xu USA Seminars
* Yu Xiao Lin Seminars Aug. 9-10, 2008 "

Hope it's a help to you. If not, keep it anyway. You might need it in later date.

Ciao,
lim
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Postby Bob Ashmore » Thu Jul 24, 2008 1:00 pm

Yslim,
Most of it makes very much sense, some makes me go "Hmmmmmm?" right now but I am working on gaining more knowledge of these things.
Thanks.
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