Coming over from another style

[Wushuer]

I would like to ask a question of all "multi-styled" people on here.
How do you handle practicing?
By that I mean, how do you keep these styles seperate?
I have found that, during training, I really need to concentrate on the style I am training in at the moment. So I drop practicing the "other style" during classes, only doing them once a week or so to keep myself up to snuff.
Am I the only one?
I seem to remember we kind of covered this base before on here, but I am curious to see how others handle this problem.
For the last few weeks, I have been doing every form I can possibly remember. YCF style, Wu style, all the weapons I have learned.
I have found it has been a very productive time for me, personally.
I feel that I have re-acquired quite a bit of my old skills in Wu style, and consequently have increased the level of skill in my new YCF style.
Has anyone else had this experience?

[gene]

Hi Wushuer:

When working with different styles, I think you have to do your best about keeping each style in its own "box," and guarding diligently against modifying postures to conform to other styles. I think the only way I can really do this, long-term, is to schedule occasional refresher lessons with my teacher, and to have him watch me do the form from his style and point out and correct any "corruptions." Right now, with the demands of work and family compressing my practice time, I work on wu ji jing gong (the form I'm currently focusing on) on alternate days. On the first "between" day, I focus on my Guangping form; on the second "between" day, YCF sections 1 and 2; and on the third "between" day, YCF section 3. I try to do some sword or xingyi every day, in addition to stretching and conditioning exercises. If I can find a willing victim, I try to practice some push hands for at least one session every two weeks. I know this isn't perfect, but the rotation of forms keeps everything fresh and fun for me.

Gene

[Wushuer]

Thanks for sharing, Gene.
Sounds like a good plan.
I agree with not wanting to run the styles together. For now they definitely need to kept distinctly seperate.
Though I do think, MUCH later, that consolidating them may not be a bad idea. I would never dream of promoting a "new improved" style or anything even approaching that. But I do think that MY style will have to eventually be found and that I will eventually have to incorporate what works for me from each different style into one that is uniquely my own. But that would be a long time down the pike.
Since my section 1 class ended, I have been doing YCF style, 13 posture and section 1, first thing in the mornings. I can usually find some time at work to sneak away and do the YCF 13 posture form, at least once, usually twice, every day I'm there.
Evenings have been alternated between the Wu style 108 form fifth generational form one night, and then the Wu 108 posture Saber form the next. I have been sneaking in a Wu style 2nd, 3rd, or fourth generation form (all 108 posture) whenever I find the time, usually one each a week after I've done the other forms in the evenings.
I don't have a group I can push hands with currently, though I am working on that.
I've been kind of looking into getting the "practice group" we discussed earlier together. Nothing solid yet, but hopefully after the holidays I can get a bit more concrete with that.
In the meantime, I do "shadow boxing" push hands, just pushing against myself. I know it's not much, but it's all I've got for the moment.
My section 2 class starts this week, so I'll be backing off tremendously on the Wu forms until that's over. Probably only doing the fiftg generation form once a week. I still want to keep it fresh, but don't want to run it together with the YCF form.
Anyone else have a program they follow to keep their "styles" different? Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.

[Michael]

When I still practiced both complete sets it would be YCF in the morning after twenty minutes of sitting---and Guang Ping in the evening followed by standing----and broadsword every other day----now alternated with staff (just learning).

On the weekend I would do the YCF set and flow right into the Guang Ping(right style) and then a "left style". It would take just about an hour. Not always an easy thing to do....but when it "worked" it was very, very satisfying. I don't know that I would recommend this today. I now just do two YCF sets with no break. I try to do it in about the same amount of time.

The GP and YCF have much in "common" but are just as "different". They are very interesting to compare and they compliment each other, but they each have their own way of "doing" things---which depends on each styles individual structure and mechanics. It is a bad idea to mix them---just my opinion.

However, I have been known to adapt some Guang Ping techniques into the YCF but NEVER in form practice. Only when exploring the possibilities technique wise in individual forms.

[Audi]

Wushuer:

I noticed that you made several references to the "upright and centered postures of YCF Style" and wanted to clarify something in case there might be some confusion.

Some of the teachers in Yang Chengfu's line do indeed advocate an upright stance in practically all postures. Yang Zhenduo and Yang Jun, however, teach a slight forward lean in all the bow stances except for Ward Off Left, Single Whip, and Fan Through the Back (Did I miss any?). In Punch Downward, there is, of course, a very pronounced lean. The exceptions to the slight lean involve postures where there is supposed to be more or less equal energy going backward and forwards.

Take care,
Audi

[Wushuer]

Michael,
I can understand not combining the styles during a form. I was not even hinting at that. Always keep your forms pure!
What I was trying to say is that, EVENTUALLY, I will have to reconcile the two styles into one fighting style, MY fighting style.
Most likely I would practice this during push hands and free style sparring. I was not, and would not ever even think of, talking of creating a practice style or form, changing what my teachers have shown me.
Combining the two different theories and techniques should give me a very solid basis for free style fighting techniques. I would hope above and beyond what learning only one style, or frame, would do.
I have been in the game long enough, and recent experience has proven to me beyond a doubt, to know that using different "styles" or "frames" of Taiji during free style sparring is an extemely effective way to score big. I liked using the differences between the styles to confuse my old sparring partners. I'd been sparring with some of these people for fifteen years. We are, or were since it's been six years for me, very familiar with each others style of fighting. When a "free style" sparring session was suggested, I at first balked, saying that I hadn't even pushed hands in six years, how could I spar?
But my co-horts would not hear of not "throwing me around the room" when they had the chance, especially as some of them had never been able to before. So I talked them into doing standard push hands for a while, so I could warm up.
I was just as out of it as I thought I would be. Very little sensitivity and my hips seemed to me like they were frozen solid after not being opened thoroughly in just ages.
Eventually I opened up enough to feel confident I could relax through the beating I was sure was coming my way.
To my, and my co-horts, great suprise, I was NOT soundly defeated during free style. I took my lumps, but I gave as good as I got.
In fact, by combining the tiny bit I knew of YCF style theories with the slightly larger amount I happen to remember of Wu style theories, I quite literaly kicked some butt.
My partners in crime were less amazed than I was, as most of them were former students of mine who I had taught push hands to, years and years ago. They assumed I was just being appropriately modest about my supposed lack of ability and didn't seem surprised that I was able to hold my own.
But I was simply floored. Still am.
I could not believe how effective I was able to be against them.
To this day, however, I believe it was more a lack on their end than any skill on mine. I honestly feel that had they not been anticipating so much what I would do, I would not have been able to dispatch them to the ground or across the floor so readily.
However, the combination of the two different styles and ways of moving were extremely effective. I was able to fool them a lot of times with which direction I was going or where my center was. I was also able to trick them into committing force to what they assumed my center would be from my initial movement, then "giving back" the weight to my other leg marginally and allowing them to simply go right past me without doing another thing.
It was beautiful.
And it opened up a whole new world for me. I can now see how combining these two styles if in actual combat would be GREATLY beneficial to me.

Audi,
I have been watching the tape of section 1 I purchased, to see just how far this forward lean is supposed to be during the YCF style brush knee and push.
I can tell you, beyond a doubt, that to MY lean happy sensitivities, that lean is just about as "upright and centered" as I can get.
It's just about as far forward of a lean as the initial "raise hands" in Wu style. Which is the slightest forward lean in the entire 108.
Yes, the lean is there. I accept that. However, coming from a family sytle with lots o' lean, it's not much.
One thing I have noticed on that tape, which features Han Hoong Wang, is that her stance is set a bit wider than I am used to. I tried this, and I noticed a marked improvement in my form.
Also, she, at least on the tape I have, "sits" as far down into the postures as I do. It made me feel better about my forms in that respect. I "sat" down a bit more, like I'm used to, and adjusted my stance and my steps to more closely follow her movements on the tape.
I think I'm getting a tiny bit closer to a good form now. It's awkward for me, and that shows, but this is slightly more comfortable to my body.
I am going to ask my instructor tonight if what I'm trying is an improvement, or if I'm just fooling myself.

[Audi]

Wushuer,

I am not familiar with Han Hoong Wang's form and so am not sure if the lean you see is the same as what I have tried to describe. Although I have failed to obtain a precise standard for the degree of the lean the Yangs teach, I would say that it approaches the point where the angle of the back and the angle of the rear leg more or less coincide. In the postures without the lean, the spine is exactly vertical, since there is not supposed to be a forward or backward bias to the energy.

I also want to mention something about "sitting into" your postures. The Yangs teach form in a way that provides great emphasis on extending the limbs at all times. I cannot overstress this, since many teachers I have seen and authors I have read do not seem to take this view. As a result of this training technique, certain aspects of their limb placement are very deterministic.

At the beginning of the main form the Yangs teach, the legs are straight. After preliminary movements, the weight is eventually shifted completely to the right leg to allow the left leg to step out in Ward Off Left. This is the first time the right knee or any knee appreciably bends. As I understand it, one has complete freedom of choice, depending on your wish and physical condition, as to how much to bend this knee and how low to physically sink. Whatever degree of bend you choose sets the height of 95% of the remainder of the form, the only exceptions being Push Down (Squatting Single Whip), Needle at Sea Bottom, and postures that conclude on one leg.

Since the height of the form is set by your initial choice and you must strive for maximum limb extension, my understanding is that there is no room for variation in how much to “sit into” postures, at least in the way that the Yangs teach form. Failing to “sit” all the way into a posture or trying to sit “too much” would indicate some slack somewhere in the limb placement that is not permissible. It’s kind of like trying to change one angle in a parallelogram without changing any of the other angles. Once one angle is set, all the others become equally fixed. One joint angle cannot be changed without affecting all the others.

I have not seen this quality in all teachers in Yang Chengfu’s line, but just wanted to clarify that in my opinion, this is an important aspect of what I understand the Yangs to be teaching. Your teacher may, of course, do form differently and have a different view.

Take care,
Audi

[Michael]

Wushuer,

I understand, what I meant is that I try to have a little lean in the YCF and NOT replace it with the perfectly vertical alignment from the Ban Hao (KP) for example. Just little things that can easily creep in when doing two style.

We agree that working on the two styles seperately really should stay that way. However, the training we do in our various styles fully prepares us to act appropriately when needed. I don't know if there is a need to combine them into something different or personal.

I think that what we really get from different styles are various techniques. We train nerve pathways so that we perform certain actions without thought and with power. We train "softness" or "looseness" to be able read and respond to our opponent with quick appropriate actions. Because of our individual personalities with our personal tendancies, we already have our own style. And because of the expanded repertiore(sp?) we have a greater number of responses open to us---and if our knowledge and skill is deep it will come out naturally.

I think your sparring experience bares this out.

[Wushuer]

Audi,
I would forget my own head if not attached, so I totaly forgot to ask about the sitting and taking a wider stance at my class.
It was the first night of class and we were all just getting re-acclimated again.
Anyway, I didn't ask, though I did notice there were less form corrections tossed my way than usual.
I'm still too "closed" for this style though. I'm working on that.
I kept my stance a bit wider and sat until I was more comfortable, a little deeper than before.
I feel better there, it's probably just my body mechanics. I feel more stable, more loose and I can feel my hips are more relaxed this way. So I have to go with that. Our instruction is to make the form compatible with our body, so I'm doing that.
I did like your observation on the how far down the "sit" goes in the YCF form and why. It makes sense and goes along with what I can see in my instructors demonstrations and in the tape I have.
I will continue to work on it.
I found a lean very similar to a Wu lean in the YCF form last night. I'm not sure if it's the end of Embrace Tiger and Return To Mountain, or if it's the beginning of Fist Under Elbow, but there is a decided forward lean and turn to the east there that I was extremely comfortable with. Everyone in the class saw me smile when I did that move.

Michael,
I agree. We all have our own, personal style, allready. But I would think that style would have to change and adapt to the new influences in your life.
Eventually I, and all of us, have to meld these new ways of doing things with our old style and make them work together.
The only way I can think of to do this is to try all the different things and find out what works for me. Once I find which way of moving and what movements work best for me, I will need to practice them until I do generate power without conscious thought.
This "personal style" will then by mine.
In other words, eveyones personal style will evolve and change based on their new experiences.

[Michael]

Wushuer,

Exactly.

I think the only real difference we may have is in expression. Hopefully our "style" will constantly change as we learn new things and as our depth of undertstanding increases.

Actually you are talking mainly favorite techniques are you not? Techniques which you develop to a greater depth than some others? Am I getting this wrong?

Forgive me for reapeating myself. I really believe that once your depth of understanding of the Yang style equals that which you have in the Wu style that they will be interchangable. If a situation calls for something, it will emerge. One time it may be a Yang technique another a Wu. Movement? I think again that the opponent dictates this along with everything else. As I have said here in the past, I would love to learn Bagua footwork to enhance my in close stepping speed. Would be a formidable addition. But this is merely a technique to deal with the actions of the opponent.

Some, it is said, would only train "Grasp Sparrows (Birds) tail" as that all they needed to know to defend themselves was found within. I might add a couple more forms to that series. To train in a few techniques can make you a master of them and make them "undefeatable". I do train some more than others. I guess one could call that my "personal style".

My best!

Michael

Oh yeah, does anyone remember what the supposed original or "proper" translation of what we know of as "Grasps birds tail" was? Someone talked about this a long time ago. Louis? Audi? Jerry? Can't remember.

[Wushuer]

Michael,
I think we are talking about the same thing, in a different way.
I am talking about training individual moves, all the moves I can but some will be more prevelant and easier for me to learn, until they are my bodies natural mechanics, and then they become incorporated into what I would use in an actual combat situation. In other words, how I would react to combat.
Slavishly conforming to the movements in the Wu 108 or the YCF 103 postures would get your butt kicked pretty fast in reality. They're guides to possible defenses, not the real way you would defend yourself in combat every time. The postures give you the moves your body needs, in general, to defend itself, but I don't think they were ever intended to be actual combat moves, to be used during combat to the exclusion of anything else.
What I was taught to do was to learn the movements from the forms as well and as deeply as I could, so they would occur without conscious thought. Only then are they really part of your "style" of self defense.
You will not do a "right ward off" clinically perfectly to defend against incoming force. You have to adjust the height of your arms, your waist, your legs, your stance, everything, to accept and redirect the incoming force as it has been manifested by your opponent THIS time. Your movements may be very close to "right ward off" but will not be a clinically correct version of it.
Will not be, can not be in order to be effective in real combat. You must adjust your movements to that of your opponent, so every combat movement will be different and may have, in fact almost always will have, no discernable relationship to any of the static postures from the form.
I was also taught the painstakingly correct forms for push hands as a beginning exercise in self defense, also not to be slavishly followed in combat. One handed, two handed, chain step, nine palace step, da lu, all are push hands, all are effective in helping to train you for combat. However, for real combat readiness training, we learned to spar "free style".
That's where we were taught to "fight" in Wu style training.
We would pair off into groups of two people. One would agree to be the antagonist, the other the defender. The antagonist attacked the defender in any way that seemed appropriate, bum rushing, round house punch throwing, straight jabs, kicks, all kinds of punches, whatever looked like it might work and only crippling and killing blows were not allowed. The defenders, of course, defended themselves.
It is never pretty, not choreographed and you wind up doing things that you have no idea where they came from to defend yourself.
You also learn VERY fast NOT to rely on any "form" or "posture" for defending yourself against an attacker. If you try to emulate the forms exactly like you practice them, you'll be getting a beating of biblical proportions in no time.
For one thing, if you take the time to think "I need to move my hand up to the left a bit, now I step, now I turn my waist this way...", you're dead before you started.
Your movements need to be without thought, yet still retain the elements of Taiji. It does not matter if you use the upper body posture for "raise hands" and the foot movements from "snake creeps down". It doesn't even matter if you use the upper body movements from Wu style "needle at sea bottom" and the foot work and tantien turn from YCF style "diagonal flying", as long as what you do accepts and redirects the incoming force being applied against you, it's correct. Heck, I would often regress to the forms taught to me during my sojourn into Tae Kwon Do, all those moons ago, if necessary during free style. As long as it's applied with internal intent and your movements succeed in defending you from your attacker, that's all that really matters.
Once you have reached this stage of moving yourself in technically correct ways, but not adhering to any actual form movement to achieve your goal of defense, then, at least in the opinion of my former Masters and Sifu's, you have begun to actually DO Taijiquan instead of merely dancing around to the form.
I reached that state a long, long time ago in Wu style. I, unfortunately for me, let myself slide into the realm of not being able to do that as well as I used to.
Now I am working towards the goal of re-attaining my former level of skill in Wu style techniques, AND being able to reach that level with YCF style techniques as well.
So what I am refering to as "my style" will be revealed during free style sparring. When I will have incorporated the new ways of moving and defending myself learned from YCF style into my personal defense repetoir seemlessly enough to be able to use them in actual combat.
Long winded, to be sure. But then again, I usually am.


Time to go do a form. 13 posture, I think.

[Audi]

Hi Wushuer and everyone,

Wushuer, because of all what you have posted, I am certain that your Wu Style training methods and form principles are different from my Yang Style ones; however, I am still uncertain as to whether all that adds up to different sparring principles. To take what Michael said a little further, different styles work different areas of the Taiji diagram to different degrees, but that does not always mean they are ultimately working different territory. For instance, if you have explored the various effects of body leans in your Wu practice, I tend to doubt that that is forbidden in Yang Style applications, as opposed to forbidden in form practice.

I basically agree with all that you said about the relationship the postures in the form have to sparring, except I think I see the form postures even more as training vehicles than as posture sequences to be internalized or intended to spontaneously appear later in sparring. I liken them to a person studying a language by learning and memorizing set dialogs. One never expects to reproduce any significant portion of the dialogs in real life, and certainly not with the same rhythm and intonation, but various bits of the dialogs and the grammatical principles can indeed come in handy later, adjusted for circumstances. Someone with no feel for the language cannot hope to make intelligent use of the dialogs. I believe Taijiquan is the same.

You also mentioned a lean in the transition between Embrace Tiger Return to the Mountain and Fist Under Elbow. This lean, which occurs with the transitional bow stance, is very characteristic of most of the bow stances in the form the Yangs teach. I believe the Yangs do it during this transition and in the transitions preceding the repetitions of Step Back to Repulse Monkey as well; however, I do not remember a lean being explicitly mentioned at any of the seminars I have attended.

The purpose of the lean in these transitions seems unusual to me. In Fist Under Elbow, it seems to help the body and left arm “connect” with a high incoming strike from a new opponent’s left arm. I visualize the opponent as coming from the southeast. One then “eats” up the lean by using the energy stored in the spine, legs, and waist to “power” a left hand Pluck (“Cai”) downward and to the rear, along with a 100% weight shift. Usually, the leans in the Yangs’ form seem to power a “fajin” directed forward.

By the way, this move again illustrates why the Yangs shift weight forward into Empty Stances. If no weight is shifted forward to end the posture after the Pluck I describe above, you will have to move the left arm, the right arm, and the left leg independently of the body’s mass and the right leg’s power. Even waist power is not really available, since a double thrusting arm action is required. The right fist especially will lack necessary power, since it is coming from an odd circular angle that makes even local force hard to apply. One teacher I have had, who uses 100/0 weight distribution in Empty Stances solved this problem by keeping the wrist straight and punching straight ahead, rather than bending the wrist and punching sideways. I believe he visualized the left arm movement as a “block” or “cover,” rather than a thrust.

Take care,
Audi

[Wushuer]

Audi,
I have to agree with your "other teacher" insofar as the left arm being a block or thrust. This transition seems more like an accept/redirect move on the left side than a power generating technique. I'm open to just about anything, though. Whatever works is fine with me.
I would have to disagree with the straight punch being necessary to generate "power", I find there is plenty of power in that "sideways" punch. If you commit your tantien correctly to the movement and combine it with the circular motion of the punch "sideways", applying fajing, it could damage every internal organ in the thorax.
I'll have to play with your scenario and see how it works for me. I'll let you know.
Another scenario for this transitional movement:
An incoming strike, almost straight on, from an opponenets right arm as he's facing your left side.
Use the circular movement of your arm from the forward leaning to gently offset the incoming force along the outside of your left arm and out behind you to the left or through your shoulder down your left leg to the ground, anywhere you need it to go basically. Use some or all of this redirected force to power your tantiens turn to your left and the turning/allowing your body to be turned brings you to face your opponent and the step of your right leg lands you in a bow stance, forward weighted on your left leg. This leaves your right arm free for almost anything you could need it for. You could use your right arm for a strike, applying fajing; it could be used for another acceptance and redirection of force from your opponents left arm or another opponent; a circular block of your fully exposed abdomen; a circular, upward "lift" of an incoming kick; could be anything, the possibilities are endless.

I try very hard not to use my own "force" or "stored energy" against my opponents. My opponent should have given me all the energy I could possibly need to use from his strike against me. I would use his own energy against him, rather than any of mine.

I can see what you mean by a "pluck" going behind you, however I don't believe I would use this motion for that unless sorely pressed. It seems that I would be overcommitting myself on my forward leg and be offset easily if pushed from behind. Again, I will try it.
In your scenario you mention:
"If no weight is shifted forward to end the posture after the Pluck I describe above, you will have to move the left arm, the right arm, and the left leg independently of the body’s mass and the right leg’s power."
Not necessarily. Being overcommited forward like that is why the Wu family uses weighted shifts so much. For repositioning your balance without needing that power from your back leg. Even if my tantien was fully engaged forward against my opponent and I were slightly overcommitted forward, I could easily use a weighted shift to reposition myself in any number of ways to allow my tantien a bit of wiggle room while still fully accepting and redirecting incoming force.
But that is a last ditch effort. I don't like to do it any more than I have to. You're vunerable, but for a lot less time than I feel I, at least, would be if I had committed weight to that rear leg and needed to move it in a hurry.

This is another weird scenario for the same transition, one that you wouldn't see every day, but it has worked out well for me a couple of times. I only mention this one for fun, and because I've done it and know it works.
Your opponent is armed with a staff, spear, whatever, a shafted weapon of any variety. Your opponent is making an incoming thrust towards the left side of your body.
Using the same circular leaning described above, accept the shaft at an angle across your palm or forearm, depending on angle of thrust and your abilities and timing, and redirect the force either up and to the left if you get it over your palm or to the left and behind you if you take it across the forearm, use the force of the thrust to power your tantien turn to the left and guide the pole further to your left, step into your bow stance ready for whatever comes next.
This worked out well for me during empty hand sparring sessions against pole armed opponents. It's the circling of the left arm that allows you to accept the force without bruising. You're not actually meeting it head on, you're just gently bumping it to the left then adhering and letting it do the rest of the work for you: use the force of four ounces to deflect a thousand pounds.

Another one?
OK.
Standing shoulder to shoulder, left side to left side. Opponent strikes to your left using his left arm. Accept and redirect across your forearm or palm, use your opponents force to turn your tantien to your left, step into your bow-stance, your opponent will either be facing you and slightly cocked to the right with his arm up against yours exposing his rib cage or turned to his right with his back exposed to you, release fajing through your right arm and punch either to his rib cage or his kidneys with the "sidways" punch.

Having attempted to learn french for about six years through high school and college (failing miserably by the way to actually learn it) I think I see what you mean with the "language" theory.
I hope I can assimilate Taiji better than I did french!

[This message has been edited by Wushuer (edited 12-19-2002).]

[Michael]

Wushuer,

Yes, we are talking about the same thing.

Just a little observation on the punch in Fist under elbow. When the punch slides in under the opponents elbow (I was taught) that the target was the nerve that runs along the lower rib. Accuracy, not heavy duty "force" or fajing is really needed to have satisfactory results. Now haveing said that, if the accuracy is lacking the "force" will also do the job. It just depends on how want to approach it, or on the situation.

If you hold your elbow to your side with some "looking" around you will find that nerve. A decent blow there will convince one it's usefulness as a target. It will open the opponent for a finishing technique.

One thing about any posture or form. These are parts of a "routine" as we all know. The techniques in FUE may be applied seperately or in combination, it all depends. I view any given posture just that way. In the case under discussion, the amount of waist turn or weight shift, or lean (The photos of YCF) to deliver the circular punch can be small or large. it is determined by the angles and the foot positions (they are rarely going to be the way they are in the set). And the timing of the punch may be well before the "thrust" or "block" with the left arm---or after, or at the same time. The punch may be delivered by a waist turn, a weight shift, or both.

Just some idle thoughts.

Keep it coming,

MIchael

[This message has been edited by Michael (edited 12-20-2002).]

[Wushuer]

Michael,
I have only a moment, so must be brief.
That nerver center is one of the primary points I learned for diabling blows. I must admit, until you pointed it out to me, I hadn't taken the logical step and combined that point with where that "sideways" punch could end up!