Other internal arts

Other internal arts

Postby rvc_ve » Mon Dec 22, 2003 8:30 pm

How about Xinyiquan and Baguazhang? could there be room for them in this forum somewhere? just a thought.
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Postby psalchemist » Mon Dec 22, 2003 9:37 pm

Greetings Ray,

These are foreign subjects to my ear...Xinyiquan and Baguazhang...Maybe you could provide a basic description of these internal arts and their differences to Taijiquan...I'd be interested to know also how or if they compare to Qigong...which I believe is also considered in the realm of internal, but is not martial...Are these two entities considered "martial arts" ?

Thank you,
Best regards,
Psalchemist.
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Postby Wushuer » Mon Dec 22, 2003 9:48 pm

Psalchemist:
I have seen these things called Hsing I and Bagua, it's kind of like calling T'ai Chi Ch'uan plain old Taichi.
Chi Kung can be as martial as you make it... It's like anything else.
I once studied Hsing I Ch'uan for a short time. Never could figure out what the guy was trying to teach me, though. I recognised that the guy was a very good martial artist, but could not follow his teaching. Probably was me, not him. I was taking Tae Kwon Do at the time and wasn't too interested in something that looked more like meditation that martial art.
I probably would have said the same thing about TCC, if I'd ever heard of it back then.
Anyway, Rvc_ve, if you know anything of these arts I'd like to hear more about them.
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Postby JerryKarin » Mon Dec 22, 2003 10:53 pm

Well there is a bulletin board which includes those two along with taiji.

http://www.emptyflower.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi/YaBB.cgi?board=Xing;action=messageindex;start=

There is valuable material in there, esp video clips. I used to read it but gradually found myself getting depressed by the emphasis on fighting, the constant mantra of "people who (supply a description here) are not good fighters", the predominance of insecure types who feel the need to boost themselves by putting others down, etc.

Yangfamilytaichi.com is really for Yang style taiji and we have no plans to expand the bulletin board to other things.
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Postby Wushuer » Mon Dec 22, 2003 11:06 pm

Jerry,
Thanks for the link. I also found it to be a bit.... less than what I am now used to.
As you say, some good things if you dig deep enough.
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Postby psalchemist » Tue Dec 23, 2003 1:54 am

Greetings Jerry,

Thanks for the links and the cordonning-off...I hadn't really realized...Right, right... Image

Greetings Wushuer,

Thanks for your input. Image

Best regards,
Psalchemist.

[This message has been edited by psalchemist (edited 12-22-2003).]
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Postby Audi » Tue Dec 23, 2003 2:00 am

Greetings all,

I have posted this link before, but if you missed it, you might find it interesting in this context.

http://www.geocities.com/ycgf/arti_TBX.htm

Take care,
Audi
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Postby rvc_ve » Tue Dec 23, 2003 1:40 pm

Good Link Audi, Thank you!

Jerry,
Thank you for answering my question. It was just a thought, since I am already satisfied with the way this forum has been set up. I'll continue to share what I ca about taijiquan with you guys. I've been to EMPTYFLOWER. I dont like to make any sort of coments about people not present but lets just say is not what I was looking for.


Wushuer,
I dont know Baguazhang, I'd like to learn though! But I practice Xingyiquan. I'm by no means an authority on the subject but if you are interested feel free to mail me and I'll share whatever info I have. The same goes for everybody.


Man! This is a cool forum!!! Full of civilized folks!
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Postby Michael » Tue Dec 23, 2003 4:35 pm

"Some" say that Taiji is a Bachelors degree, Hsing I, a masters, and Bagua the Doctorate. This is about the martial aspect. I am not of this opinion. Especially if they are talking "good" "better", "best". They each teach different skills.

Though not real familier with Hsing I, I have found the practioners that I have met and read seem to be rather...."agressive". I doubt it is the art, but maybe some of those attracted to it. Forgive me, if it seems unfair, but that has just been my experience.

Bagua "the art of the bodyguard", again is very martial, but great health benefits can come from it as well. I have only seen it once performed live--can remember which style--and was very impressed. But I am great believer in circling an opponent, what Bagua is known for. If the closest teacher was not two hours a way I'd have to split my time between two arts. One demands enough attention as it is, so I suppose I am lucky.

[This message has been edited by Michael (edited 12-23-2003).]
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Postby rvc_ve » Tue Dec 23, 2003 5:12 pm

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Michael:
[B]"Some" say that Taiji is a Bachelors degree, Hsing I, a masters, and Bagua the Doctorate.


Its actually the other way around. Xingyiquan's direct linear movements, the fact that is has only 5 basic techniques, and that it has a hard/soft jing, makes it the perfect introduction to internal arts. Baguazang includes more movement, strategy and stepping, fighting in diferent ranges, so a student can then progress to bagua after he has particed xingyi for a while. At least this was the way in wich the famous Sun Lu tang, master of the 3 arts and creator of Sun taiji used to teach.

The soft sharp powe rof taiji, the neutraliztions and yielding aspects, and the ability to overcome hardnesss with softness, makes it the highest art of the three, Beleive it or not is the hardest to master if you're looking to develop the martial and combative aspects, and is the toughest to apply but also the deadliest.

Using sun lu tang as an example again, after practicing xingyi and bagua for many years, he learned zhao bao taijiquan and then mixed it with some bagua and xy principles to crate sun style taijiquan. Later in his life he would practice taijiquan exclusively, since he felt it was his highest level of achevement as a martial artist. The same is true for many other famous masters.

Maybe for this same reason, after practicing taijiquan for several years, and even though Im by no means an expert, It was really easy for me to learn xingyiquan. When I spar, I use Xingyi almost exclusively, unless partner (not my opponent I dont like to fight!) closes the distance a lot. In that case I find the sticking? adhering skills aquires in push hads easiers in that situation. Also, My teacher places a lot of importance on chinna aplications of taiji, so its really cool touse them when you're in close range.

However, since I also practice for relaxation, health and spirituallity, the feeling I get when I practice my taiji form is not matched by any other practice, so it remains my first love!

Like I said, Im not an expert but at least I have begun to understand the mechanichs of the art(s) and I dont look that sloppy anymore!!!!


And let me tell you about "agression" on xingyiquan! Actually this art was created for war. Its a military system that was designed fro soldiers to learn lethal skills in a really short time. Thats why its basic techniques are simple yet effective, and its the only chinese art (as far as I know) that is offensive in nature. The practitioner is encouraged to attack and to make the fisrt move in a fight. This is because it was created for war, and you needed to finish you opponent quickly so you could take on the next one comming!

Other arts like taiji for example use deffense as an offense, that is, they will receive the attack, redirect it, blend with it, and then counter attack in the same action, therefore making this counterattack really powerful and adaptable to his opponent's intention. This is actually a higher lever strategy, but it takes longer to understand, so it wasnt very suitable for soldiers in the Marshall Yue Fei's army (one of the forefathers of xingyi), who would be recruited one day only to find themselves in battle a week later!!!!

However, xingyi its also an internal art, so if you practice it correctly you should feel calmed and realxed, so if you've met xingyi people acting like bullies and fight starters, there is something obviously wrong with their training!


But enough about xingyi! this is a taijiquan forum! I apologize for such a long reply but...I just love internal arts!


Ray V.
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Postby Michael » Wed Dec 24, 2003 12:14 am

Ray,

I agree with much of what you say.

And the hsing I types I met would be what I would call "reformed" Bully street fighter types. But still very aggressive in nature. To one them taiji is a joke. Yes something does sem to be lacking in their training.

Taiji to Hsingi to Bagua. Is not a quote of mine. I make no designation of one being "better" than another. They are different, and one may be more suited to an individual than another.

"It's actually the other way around".

That is how You feel it to be. The way I heard it explained is that Taiji lays the "complete" if you will, foundation for the internal martial arts. The following steps just adds techniques having to do with different distances and theory.

Notice that Sun combined the three and did not abandon the other two after learning taiji.

I have said this before, but taiji combined with the stepping/movement ability of Bagua, just makes them both better. But that is just my opinion---not any type of "truth". It just fits me.

practice hard!

[This message has been edited by Michael (edited 12-23-2003).]
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Postby rvc_ve » Fri Dec 26, 2003 6:15 am

Michael,

I will hate to disagree, but according to Sun Lu Tang's boigraphy by his Daughter Sun Jian Yun, in the latter years of his life, and after having perfected Sun Taiji, He practiced this art EXCLUSIVELY, feeling he was also using principles from xingyi and bagua in his taijiquan.'

Ther is a Book by Sun Lu Tang calle Xingyiquan: The form mind Bixing. I forgot the name of the translator but it has an orange cover with a big Sun picture on the top left. Its much more common than the boigraphy I mentioned first. You can find it at you local BORDERS.

In this book, there is an interview with Sun Jian Yun from the 1980's, an she specifically relates this story.

I dont feel my opinions to be an absolute truth either, but since we are mentioning historical events as well, from the life of master Sun, well...its always useful to have the facts straight!!!!

Merry Chistmas to you !
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Postby rvc_ve » Fri Dec 26, 2003 6:16 am

Michael,

I will hate to disagree, but according to Sun Lu Tang's boigraphy by his Daughter Sun Jian Yun, in the latter years of his life, and after having perfected Sun Taiji, He practiced this art EXCLUSIVELY, feeling he was also using principles from xingyi and bagua in his taijiquan.'

Ther is a Book by Sun Lu Tang calle Xingyiquan: The form mind Bixing. I forgot the name of the translator but it has an orange cover with a big Sun picture on the top left. Its much more common than the boigraphy I mentioned first. You can find it at you local BORDERS.

In this book, there is an interview with Sun Jian Yun from the 1980's, an she specifically relates this story.

I dont feel my opinions to be an absolute truth either, but since we are mentioning historical events as well, from the life of master Sun, well...its always useful to have the facts straight!!!!

Merry Chistmas to you !
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Postby Michael » Fri Dec 26, 2003 2:56 pm

Ray,

"I will hate to disagree, but according to Sun Lu Tang's boigraphy by his Daughter Sun Jian Yun, in the latter years of his life, and after having perfected Sun Taiji, He practiced this art EXCLUSIVELY, feeling he was also using principles from xingyi and bagua in his taijiquan."

Don't know what you are disagreeing with as that is my point. He really did not abandon the other two. True, he did not do his Bagua and hsing I sets, because he did not have to. He found a way to incorporate important aspects of the other two into his taiji. This is one the things that make Sun's taiji unique.
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