just wondering...

just wondering...

Postby jungle_low_fei » Fri Dec 12, 2003 3:09 am

i read ealier in this site about a practice that i learned...and it has to do with the nutrilization of your oponents chi..but it wasn't using fa jing....what is the name..?..i didn't release any energy so i know it's not fa jing..?
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Postby dorshugla » Fri Dec 12, 2003 6:16 pm

Neutralization of someone's qi is foolisnhess and deception to the nth degree.
If you want to do fa jing, practice Chen style according to the requirements.

Fa jing is also deceptibe because it is stated to be 'subtle' in Yang style and shocking in Chen style.
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Postby psalchemist » Fri Dec 12, 2003 6:53 pm

Greetings dorshugla,

You wrote:
"Neutralization of someone's qi is foolishness and deception to the nth degree" dorshugla

This is intriguing...I would be interested in knowing why you believe this to be so.

Thank you,
Psalchemist.
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Postby jungle_low_fei » Sun Dec 14, 2003 11:47 pm

actually i was using tai chi with no form to begin with and found that a chen stylist directly teaching from their system was very easy to defeat.."several times...!!"..but that is not part of the question,...neither was who's style is better..i was requesting the name of the technique....according to the usage..not an opinion..i am also familier with the hwa yu system..and is fine thank you..i am asking for yang advice..not a chen advertisment..but thanks for you info,...
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Postby psalchemist » Mon Dec 15, 2003 1:18 am

Greetings Jungle Low Fei,

I was hoping for a reply to your question from a more experienced player myself, but since none is forthcoming...yet...

I am in novice, beginning level, and am not sure if this is what you seek, or if this suits your question description or not, but I'll give it a go anyways.

A while ago on the board, I know there was a discussion involving a "lifting" and "launching" technique...but again, I am not sure if this involves neutralization or fajin...It was called "TiFang". It describes cutting off an opponent at his root, thereby "lifting" him, and then "launching" him.

Best regards,
Psalchemist.
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Postby jungle_low_fei » Mon Dec 15, 2003 8:22 am

well,...yes the topic is some what related,..but the result is different,..i don't want to remove the opponent,..the intent is to ..like...bring the others chi to a stand still of sorts..i can already do it,, i just needed the name...redirecting his/she chi to his advantage until it balances itself out,....is the outcome..leaving a nuetral zone..sort of saying,....takes time and practice of chi excersicing...i've been studying for thirteen years now,...and i am stil finding new ways of blossoming...thanks for you responce..i would like to hear more from you,..ive been reading off and on through out the yang style site without ever..becoming a member,...but i starting taking on students that are no longer interested in the use of chi ,..they want to know names,....waste of time..in a way..but i guess names serve a prupose too,... Image
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Postby JerryKarin » Mon Dec 15, 2003 6:42 pm

Judging by the pattern of IP addresses and the content of the posts I think jungle is a troll we've seen here in the past.
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Postby psalchemist » Tue Dec 16, 2003 12:07 am

Greetings Jungle Low Fei,

There are a few points I'd like to address from your posting, if I may...

Firstly,
You wrote:
<Yes, the topic is somewhat related...but the result is different...I don't want to remove the opponent...the intent is to bring the others chi to a standstill of sorts...redirecting his/she chi to his advantage until it balances itself out...is the outcome...I can already do it, I just needed the name.> JLF

Well...I can neither execute, nor properly label that particular skill myself...Unfortunately...Wish I could have been of more service.

But I understand conceptually what you describe...I think. Image


You stated:
<It takes time and practice of chi exercising> JLF

Practice of chi exercising? Perhaps you could clarify your statement...describe in further detail what you mean by that expression..."chi exercising"? I am not sure in whiat context you are speaking.

Taijiquan terminology is not an exact, universal language, as far as I know, and so would like to make certain of what you are describing before commenting or questioning, if you don't mind.


You dicted:
<I've been studying for thirteen years now and am still finding new ways of blossoming.> JLF

Very nicely expressed...I too expect to follow a similar path of sewing, cultivating, pruning...blossoming... Image


You also wrote,
<I started taking on students that are no longer interested in the use of chi...they want to know names...waste of time...in a way...but I guess names serve a purpose too...>JLF

I consider interest in chi and interest in labels or names to be two different subjects.

I have been told, moreover, that chi should not be focused upon...manipulated...it is more of a by-product of good form...

I believe the importance of posture names and terminology is limited, as you suggest.

Posture names,
are helpful in leading a class of beginners.
Also,
they are necessary tools for historical... textual...conveyance and documentation.

Technical terms,
Useful for Taijiquan philosophy discussion Image

Philosophy,
More vastly encompassing, I believe can be used in conjunction with qualified demonstration, instruction and "gong fu ", practice, will lead to a well balanced, comprehensive student, practitioner of Taijiquan.

For example, it is not altogether essential to hear of, learn all the passages concerning the "threading of the nine pearls" in taijiquan philosophy, if one has the ability to grasp the meaning of and achieve implementation of it with "upper body/lower body" movement connotations provided at Yang seminars.

If one can understand how to achieve continuous flowing movement without further analogies to "silk reeling" that's just great
but they can be helpful doorways to understanding...or understanding more deeply.

Not exactly essential or necessary,
though,
not all that detrimental either.

If one sacrifices concentration in form to recite the commands in his head then he is detracting from the meaning, efficiency and results of his practice.
If one is trying to recall if it was "zhan" or "lian" while he's pushing hands, I should say there is a problem.

All in all, I think posture names and technical terminology are mostly tools for teachers, historical documentators and overall for those dedicating their lives to propigating Taijiquan in it's traditional sense.

There are many views on philosophy...unlike the posture names and termionology,I personally believe it is valuable to the student as well as the propigators, historians and teachers.

I find that textual explanations can enhance and add further detail, therefore, comprehension to a matter which has been demonstrated, but not verbally explained in depth.
Conversely,
A demonstration presented to a student with basic theoretical knowledge and understanding will be more easily and deeply absorbed and assimilated.

I find the two work efficiently together...if used in a well balanced system.

Others may differ in their opinions, these are only the humble ramblings of a beginner to Taijiquan.


Thank you,
Best regards,
Psalchemist.




[This message has been edited by psalchemist (edited 12-16-2003).]
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Postby dorshugla » Tue Dec 16, 2003 5:34 pm

psalchemist,

Neutralization of someone's qi at the present level of taijiquan practice in North America is a myth.

If anything, one neutralizes those of flesh and blood (substantial/tangible objects) so to say it is true, is OK because some feel it is a right to speak (so be it I agree) but it sounds superstitious.

If anyone on this board can do this, I beg that you teach psalchemist this trick/technique. It is OK if I am not aware of it but I am sorry.

As a teacher and student, I cannot fool people like that just to take their money because they want to throw it away.

TiFang (lift/let go) is physically applied against flesh and blood and has no relationship to neutralization of opponent's qi.
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Postby Louis Swaim » Tue Dec 16, 2003 6:25 pm

Greetings from North America,

I’m not familiar with the exact terminology, “neutralization of qi,” but I’m not inclined to dismiss it out of hand as “myth.” There is a technical term in taijiquan, “hua,” that is sometimes translated as “neutralize,” and another term, “huajin,” that would be “neutralizing jin,” or “neutralization of jin.” I think, though, that neutralize is not a particularly accurate or useful translation. Gu Rou Chen spoke in another thread of “dissipation of energy within a system,” and this may better describe the redirection or redistribution of force. Hua basically means to transform or change, and I think in the taijiquan context it refers to redirecting and blending with the force of the opponent. I’ve posted some further thoughts about this in the “front leg in bow stance” thread where Jeff posted his comments.

Take care,
Louis
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Postby dorshugla » Tue Dec 16, 2003 8:18 pm

Louis,

I am more familiar with "blending/redirecting" and it is a more teachable skill as opposed to neutralization of someone's qi.

Neutralization is not the issue for me as it speaks for itself. It is the term "neutralization of the others qi" that is odd.
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Postby rvc_ve » Wed Dec 17, 2003 3:51 pm

Greetings everyone,

From my point of view (and I could be wrong of course), qi manifests itself through the physical body when we apply proper techniques. This technique, when used against an oponent, can be neutralized, counter or we can react against it in any way we can.


Therefore, it is the technique itself, the manifestation of qi and mind intent the one being neutralized, at least in the way most of us are acustomed to, when pushing hands or sparring. This neutralization is performed at a physical level too, that is, by using our bodies to turn, yield, coil, neutralize, or any other action we feel we need to take.

So if we where trying to neutralize qi itnself, adn Im just speculating here, perhaps this neutralization should be done at non-physical level, using our own qi.


This is something I've never heard before, but maybe some high level master somewhere in the past or the present could have reached this stage.

Did I understand the post correctly? he was talking about neutralizing "QI" right?

Good post though, it made me think and hope that perhaps at some pion a hard working practitioner coulde develop a JEDI-LIKE power to fight at the energetic level of just mind and qi, even before the physical body takes any visible action!


Thank you,

Ray
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Postby dorshugla » Wed Dec 17, 2003 5:19 pm

Ray,

It is an impossibility. No one neutralizes at a non-physical level. There must be contact and application. People are fooling you but if you find such a teacher, by all means study with such a person.
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Postby HengYu » Wed Dec 17, 2003 7:41 pm

This is a fascinating discussion. An opponent can be effected psychologically, simply by the way one presents themselves - presentation occurs on two levels;

1) The physical.
2) The psychological.

When mind and body have reached the stage of unified existance, then the presentation is like a noose around the opponent's mind and body. His or her intentions become restricted and their options limited. Mild panic and confusion sets in. This is before actual physical contact of any kind. If done properly, they have already been uprooted. The moving into close proximity and the execution of the appropriate technique, is then a formality, and only serves to finish the uprooting.
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Postby rvc_ve » Wed Dec 17, 2003 8:52 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by dorshugla:
<B>Ray,

It is an impossibility. No one neutralizes at a non-physical level. There must be contact and application. People are fooling you but if you find such a teacher, by all means study with such a person.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I didint say that I knew it could be done. Im just trying to undertand the original question, and thats how I thought it was askes. Of course you need contact to neutralize!!!! we all know that!!!!

But if you talk about neutralizing just QI, thats a non-physical concept!
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