just wondering...

Postby psalchemist » Wed Dec 17, 2003 10:49 pm

Greetings Heng Yu,

I found your posting thought provoking...Psychological methods of neutralization...Although, perhaps, this extends beyond the realm of Taijiquan...

May I ask for a definition of "unified existance" in this context, as you mean it?

What are the qualities of an individual possessed of "unified existance" and how would this affect an opponent thus?

Thank you,
Best regards,
Psalchemist.
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Postby dorshugla » Wed Dec 17, 2003 11:14 pm

While is South Korea some years ago, I tried a trick on some friends. There is an island that when it is low tide, if one looks from afar it look sas if one were walking on water. One day a friend tried to duplicate walking on water but he was not aware of the time of the tide and though he saw the water, he was not aware unitl he dropped off an embankment.

ANother point; people think aikido is effortless with all the pretty moves. If one adds atemi to all aikido moves, people will actually be afraid because they know they will be struck but mystified because of the awkward angulation(s) and the animal like "mind freezing" that takes place when you ado not know when someone will destroy your own thought about response.
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Postby rvc_ve » Thu Dec 18, 2003 2:34 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by dorshugla:
people will actually be afraid because they know they will be struck but mystified because of the awkward angulation(s) and the animal like "mind freezing" that takes place when you ado not know when someone will destroy your own thought about response.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

COOL!
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Postby HengYu » Thu Dec 18, 2003 9:02 am

[QUOTE]Originally posted by psalchemist:
[B]Greetings Heng Yu,

I found your posting thought provoking...Psychological methods of neutralization...Although, perhaps, this extends beyond the realm of Taijiquan...

Answer.
Hi there! Well, that kind of depends upon why you practice taijiquan in the first place; to ignore the mind whilst training the body, will not lead to the highest levels.

May I ask for a definition of "unified existance" in this context, as you mean it?

What are the qualities of an individual possessed of "unified existance" and how would this affect an opponent thus?

Answer.
Generally speaking, the first level of unification is purely physical, i.e. the alignment of the skeleton - shoulders with pelvis, pelvis with heels, elbows with knees and hands with feet. The head resting on a naturally 'S' shaped spine. This state becomes the norm. When the musculature is free of habitual tension, the bodyweight will naturally fall, via the aligned posture, into the floor. this produces to effects;

1) Rootedness - it is difficult for an opponent to move you.
2) Due to efficient placement of bodyweight and alignment of the skeleton, the practitioner is able to glide with ease in any direction, with the force of an iron ball.

The correct dropping of weight through an aligned posture has a psychological effect. It calms the mind to an incredibable degree. Which inturn, leads to the next stage,which is the unification of the mind and body.

How is this unification achieved? A calm mind perceives more. When the mind is not taken-up solely with intellectual activity, the true spectrum of awareness comes to the fore. What does this mean? Simply this; the mind's natural awareness (which is always there) becomes obvious and constant. The body appears to arise within the scope of awareness of the mind. In other words, the body is permiated by awareness. This awareness is often signified by a circle. Holding the '3 ball' posture is symbolic of this state, with the unification of mind, body and spirit, or;

1) Shen (spirit/mind).
2) Jing (body.physical universe).
3) Qi (universal energy.

The higher physical aspects of taijiquan are accessed via the mind. The relaxing of tension is achieved with the dropping of the breath and the opening of the qi channels.

The attributes of those in this state, are calmness and precision. On a personal level, many become compassionate and socially active.
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Postby psalchemist » Fri Dec 19, 2003 12:55 am

Greetings dorshulga,

Thanks for replying to my query on your posting.

I can see now where there is a debatable notion inherent in the term "neutralization" of energy as opposed to "redirecting" of energy...It even adds a certain air of mystery, or superstition, as you have alluded to, which is uneccessary.

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Postby psalchemist » Fri Dec 19, 2003 1:03 am

Hello Louis,


Thank you for expanding upon the expression "neutralization" and the implications with the exression defining dispersion of energy, "Hua", "Huajin".

I had not considered correlating the two.

Best wishes for the holidays. Image

Best regards,
Psalchemist.
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Postby jungle_low_fei » Fri Dec 19, 2003 8:13 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by JerryKarin:
Judging by the pattern of IP addresses and the content of the posts I think jungle is a troll we've seen here in the past. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

well you could be wrong,...i've never posted here , until the question at hand...and it still has been un answered...thank you,...but if it clarifies anything..you are right it is some what a myth,...but what else is left when you are working with qi..?..you can not touch it right,..?!..well if you could..or have learned the way that is directed to qi itself...then yes it's possible..even with those who doubt..it can happen...no matter what they say...the action is it self not my opion...seen it and have shown it,...but besides that..i am asking for the name..i have seen it on this site before,..thats all...i'm glad it has gotten alot of people to give good journey to their intent...hopes of good results for you all,...i still would like to know the name...and even without,...i will continue...thank you for you time....jungle_low_fei......
if you wish to further these ideals..i can also be reached at jungle_low_fei@hotmail.com
or page me (915)724-1631 please, if you are going to page me, do not put in # after the number, it won't go through...thanks..
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Postby jungle_low_fei » Fri Dec 19, 2003 8:24 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by dorshugla:
<B>Ray,

It is an impossibility. No one neutralizes at a non-physical level. There must be contact and application. People are fooling you but if you find such a teacher, by all means study with such a person.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
it's not an imposssibilty...how can one say they teach ..and say that chi has to be a physical reality to begin with,..?..if you can blend two things that are different and remain different..you are mistaking your students for fools,..and they are mistaking you for a teacher,...the two remain the two...they can only be balanced...brought to a point of understanding.."if you will"..."chi"..if it doesn't exist in a non-physical form does nothing but act as a verbal idea..or expression...nothing more...never to be experienced...just the idea..never excersised...why even bother to say you practice,..just think about it alot...hmmm...stick you lil toung to a nin volt batery and tell me after you bring you toung away..you would experience nothing again...!!!...don't you even study physics like you are suposed to..?,,you teach but you don't understand..?..where does your chi come from..?!!!..the store..?come on gice the rest of the world a break...a dream..a chance to lift their energy up to for further than you could possibly imagine...!!!!..if for any one,..for the one who wants no limit..!!..thanks..and i hope i didn't come across as being rude...jungle_low_fei
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Postby HengYu » Fri Dec 19, 2003 12:23 pm

Hi All! As far as I understand the situation, 'neutralising' can mean simply to defuse via absorbtion; in its most simplistic form. However, not all energy can be defused in this manner, such energy requires deflection AND redirection. Thus adding attributes to the neutralisation process. This is the essence of internal iron vest;

1) Weight dropped.
2) Natural roundedness of the body enhanced through practice.
3) Resulting in postural power which;

a) Absorbs.
b) Redirect.
c) Reflects.

Incoming power from every angle. This is neutralising qi which is generated outside of one's own body. Where the dropped bodyweight opens the qi channels for energy generation, the same qi channels are used in reverse (i.e. taking qi in and absorbing it into the floor, via the feet). Whether generating or absorbing qi, the channels must be open. Neutralising is more than absorbing, but absorbing is an essential attribute of it.
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Postby psalchemist » Fri Dec 19, 2003 12:25 pm

Greetings Jungle Low Fei,

I am wondering...

Is it possible that there is a battle of Taijiquan semantics in progress? No, not possible...that type of thing NEVER happens in Taijiquan philosophy discussions!!! (Yes, slightly sarcastic there.)

The definition of "neutralization" (english, that is), is the act of destroying or countering the effectiveness of force etc. , very similar in fact to "dispersion" which, in like, is to break up and scatter force etc.

As I stated previously, I am a relatively new student to Taijiquan and so cannot supply the terminology you seek.

I would be interested, however, in knowing what you believe the fine differences between the act of "neutralizing" of and "dispersing" of an opponents force would be?
Is there a difference between the two actions...If so what are they?

Clarifications on this point would be helpful in clearing up a certain confusion I suffer in this debate of skill, and/or expressions.

Thank you,
Best regards,
Psalchemist.
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Postby psalchemist » Fri Dec 19, 2003 12:33 pm

Greetings Heng Yu,

Seems we crossed postings...

I am not sure yet if I quite understand the gesture...but I will think about it...Thank you.

I have one question about your post...

Could you explain the term you employed of "iron vest"...I have never heard of this expression before...

Is that simply implying an untouchable quality developped over years of practice?

Thank you,
Best regards,
Psalchemist.
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Postby Audi » Fri Dec 19, 2003 2:01 pm

Hi Jungle Low Fei:

I fear that since we are apparently not talking about shared terminology, you are unlikely to get an answer you can have any confidence in without describing more of the substance of what it is you are talking about. Could you describe exactly what it is you do to an opponent and/or why you do it?

Also, what kind of Qi or manifestation of Qi are you talking about? A phrase like "neutralization of Qi" could be taken as referring to the Qi that leads or generates Jin, as Louis has explained, or even some sort of Dim mak (Dian mai)(manipulation of pressure points?) that stuns, injures, or kills an opponent by disrupting Qi in the meridians. It can also be taken as referring to the Qi that underlies Shen, or spirit, as some seem to have interpreted your phrase. In this sense, Leng Jin (Cold/Freezing Energy?) might apply if you think of "neutralization" as "immobilizing" your opponent.

I am throwing these terms around, not because I am an expert in any of them, but just to hint at why describing what you do, why you do it, and what effect you have on the opponent might be important to get the answer you seek.

Take care,
Audi
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