The Full & The Empty - Form & The Void.

The Full & The Empty - Form & The Void.

Postby HengYu » Fri Dec 19, 2003 9:51 pm

To me, part of Yang Luchan's genius is the development of the forward and back sway, where the whole of the foot under surface is used in the transition from one posture to the next, making full use of the entire foot as it touches the ground. This leads to a complete feeling of the ground we stand upon, and a complete reading of the ground we stand upon. It initiates the movement of dropped bodyweight (combat qi) from one leg to another, either forward or back, or up and down. The leg containing the majority of bodyweight is the full side, the leg containing the least bodyweight is the empty side. In other words, the specific use of yin/yang theory in internal martial arts. The placement of bodyweight varies as we move around, creating a constant sliding scale of qi force. For me, all else follows from this.
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Postby Wushuer » Fri Dec 19, 2003 11:03 pm

And yet, Wu Chian Chuan altered this for his form. Utilizing instead the force derived from the energy found in rocking back and forth between the ball of the foot and the heel, mostly on a single, fully body weighted foot.
The Wu style of Wu Chian Chuan uses the body to extend and collapse from this natural force in the feet. Combined with the "lean" of the Wu style, this creates what I have heard refered to as a "tidal wave" of force, not found in Yang style.
Is one better than the other? I have yet to find out. I'll let you know in a few years, after I've had the chance to study the Yang style to the same degree as I have studied the Wu style in the past.
Please do not misinterpret my words, I have a new found love for the Yang style and will not denigrate it. I simply have nearly two decades of love and respect for the Wu style, my Sifu, Eddie Wu and Si Kung Wu Tai Sin.
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Postby rvc_ve » Fri Dec 19, 2003 11:10 pm

well, I dont blame you! wu style rocks! Im a Yang style person but I've practice a little of the wu form, and its relly interesting.


Is one style better than the other? not my place to say and thats not the subject of the thread anyway, but lets just say that every taiji style has its strong points, because they are different interpretations of the same principles by different people.


But back to the foward/backwar sway... it also smoothes the stepping a lot, providion more stable stances at the end of the step.:d
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Postby Wushuer » Fri Dec 19, 2003 11:18 pm

And again...
That "giving back of weight" is confusing to this Wu stylist mind of mine. I have found a few places where it is applicable to combat, however in every one of those instances I have found that the weighted pivot works equally well, and in some cases far better.
I guess it's a case of what you are used to. I have been practicing weighted pivots, both in Wu style and previously in "traditional" Yang style, for twenty years. The "shifting back and forth" was not taught to me, by anyone, until three years ago when I began training YCF style.
I am still working on it, though, and have not condemned it by any stretch. I am working on the uses, practical applications, of this "giving back of weight" before movement. I find it fascinating.
It is obviously the precursor of the Wu style "lean". YCF stylists shift, Wu stylists lean. You get to the same place, but to one who is used to instantaneous movement it seems slow and awkward to me.
My YCF instructor can move like lightning this way, however, and I am working on the subtleties to get me to that point.
My former associates in Wu style find the concept fascinating, and just as confusing as it is to me.
As with the "movement from the waist" for push hands as opposed to "movement from the hip" you get to the same place, but in an entirely different manner.
Fascinating, fascinating differences.
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Postby HengYu » Sat Dec 20, 2003 10:16 am

Interesting, thanks. If Wu is any better (and I think it depends upon the instructor and the student) it is because it is a development of a trend started by Yang Luchan. However, I am not sure it is, purely from an experiencial perspective. What many fail to realise (and many Yang instructors fail to teach) is that the important transitional stance of Yang style, is immediately mid-way between the form and the void, when the dropped bodyweight is in perfect balance, not favouring either leg. This hidden stance is exactly what the Wu style has developed as there main stance. As a consequence, I have found Wu practitioners to be static and unable to emit qi or move as freely as a Yang expert. Now, that is my experience of three people who studied various versions of Wu before training in Yang. From what I saw of Sun, nad that was an old master in Hong Kong, it looked incredibly fluid.
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