Postures and meridians

Postures and meridians

Postby lob » Thu May 27, 2004 3:26 pm

What about postures and health benefits dued to corresponding meridians (if any)?

thanx
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Postby Audi » Mon May 31, 2004 1:54 am

Hi Lob,

What exactly is your question? Or maybe, what is that prompts your question?

--Audi
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Postby lob » Mon May 31, 2004 7:43 am

Hi Audi

I was just considering the possibility that the forms (at least the oldest ones) were created with an eye to the energy circulation according to TCM.
In this regard, I guess that each posture (or small sequence of postures) should correspond to a certain meridian and that the entire circulation should be completed at the end of the form, as it actually happens with most of dynamic qigong patterns.

regards lob




[This message has been edited by lob (edited 05-31-2004).]
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Postby César » Mon May 31, 2004 4:00 pm

Hi!
I found this on the web. I hope it helps
César
Q: Are there acupuncture points stimulated by specific movements?

Chen Xiaowang: Different postures require different coordination of the muscles, resulting in different emphasis. Qi is communicated through the channels, so different results with different movements.
http://ar1.hit.bg/taijiquan/t25.htm
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Postby Audi » Fri Jun 04, 2004 12:36 am

Hi César and lob,


César, thanks for the link. I had great trouble accessing it, but it was well worth the effort. My respect for Chen Xiaowang never ceases to grow.

lob, many people seem to describe Taijiquan as if it were a martial extension of Qi Gong and/or of TCM (“traditional Chinese medicine”). From what I understand, the traditional Taiji families see the art as based on the same general theories as these practices, but as something independent of them.

I can recall receiving form corrections at various times before I began to study the Yangs’ form. Some of these corrections were described as necessary to stimulate various meridians. I specifically recall that this reasoning applied to turning the left foot inward in the Low Posture/Snake Creeps Down (“Xia4 Shi4”) and to how the hook hand was formed in Single Whip. When I began to study the Yangs’ form, I was surprised because these particular form details were taught differently from the corrections I had been given and because meridians were not discussed at all in this context.

My own view is that Yang Style Taijiquan and its parent style in the Chen family were originally designed purely for martial purposes. However, since Taiji theories are based on “naturalness” and “Yin/Yang” theory, they have an inherent affinity for health and health-related systems, including TCM and Qi Gong. A natural and efficient body and mind will be good for both health and self-defense.

Take care,
Audi
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Postby Yury Snisarenko » Fri Jun 04, 2004 5:20 am

Hi All

I completely agree with Audi and consider Taiji some independently from qigong. The fundamental martial aspect is based on jin and jin lu (jin pathways) not on qi meridians. In my view it's not necessary (but probably preferable) to know meridians "acting" in postures. And I think for health aspect it's more important meridians' balance rather than stimulating particular meridian.

However Wang Peishin had approach emphasizing meridians and acupuncture points.
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Postby Polaris » Fri Jun 04, 2004 3:11 pm

In our school we learn the martial accurately first, the "jin," and then we get into how the form balances the meridians. we are told that the hand form is designed to completely balance out the entire system once (if done correctly, of course). Kind of like "de-gaussing" the body.

We are also taught 24 separate exercises which are designed to affect specific energy systems, with names like "kidney stretch" and so on. While they do energize the meridians in specific ways, they are still presented as distillations of the energies required to fight using "soft style." My Sifu says that they didn't call the exercises "qigong" when he was a kid, they called them "Taijigong." He is the first in his family to teach these openly, in fact, his uncles were a bit miffed with him for doing so back in the 70s.

Cheers,
-P.
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Postby Audi » Sat Jun 05, 2004 11:53 am

Hi Polaris,

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Polaris:
In our school we learn the martial accurately first, the "jin," and then we get into how the form balances the meridians. we are told that the hand form is designed to completely balance out the entire system once (if done correctly, of course). Kind of like "de-gaussing" the body.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This seems to validate lob's hypothesis, at least for Wu Style.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">We are also taught 24 separate exercises which are designed to affect specific energy systems, with names like "kidney stretch" and so on. While they do energize the meridians in specific ways, they are still presented as distillations of the energies required to fight using "soft style."</font>


It sounds like you are implying that 24 energies (or some multiple of them) are "required to fight using 'soft style.'" If my deduction is correct, could you name what the 24 energies are without revealing anything improper? I am curious how the map to the teaching of Yang Style.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">My Sifu says that they didn't call the exercises "qigong" when he was a kid, they called them "Taijigong.".</font>


"Gong" (as in "Taijigong")is a tough word to translate in this context, but I think of it as roughly the equivalent of "drills" or "exercises."

On a separate note that is off topic, does the Wu Family teach in Mandarin or Cantonese, when they teach in Chinese? Also, do they have strong preferences as to how Chinese terms should be transliterated? At times, such decisions have implicated political sensitivities that I would prefer to respect where possible. I think much of this has changed now that Pinyin has gained grown just about everywhere, but I thought I would check.

Take care,
Audi
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Postby Polaris » Sat Jun 05, 2004 2:29 pm

Audi,

The 24 "Taijigong" forms are all found somewhere in the hand form, so I wouldn't say that they are necessary to learn the martial art. They are a nice shortcut, however, IME.

The sequence of the Wu style hand form is essentially the same as that found in Yang style, the only major structural difference is at the end, with "High Pat on Horse" as form 105, "Grasp Bird's Tail" as 106 and then "Single Whip" as form 107 followed by the "Conclusion" as form 108. Some of the 24 forms are standing postures, "post standing" is one way to refer to them, without external movement. Others are active, moving, but without stepping. There are four internal/external conditions that describe them, and they are divided about 25% each: Stillness Inside/Stillness Outside (Horse stances and other "post standing" exercises such as "Golden Cock"), Stillness Inside/Movement Outside (which is how the form is described, incidentally), Movement Inside/Stillness outside (leading the energy through different patterns coordinated with the breathing) and Movement Inside/Movement Outside (sometimes involving "Silk Reeling" energy). The number 24 is reached, I believe, by expressing the 8 power generations (p'eng, lu, chi, etc.) in 3 circles; vertical, horizontal and diagonal.

As to which dialect the Wu family use, it depends on the family member. Wu Ta-hsin uses Mandarin for formal occasions and Cantonese with his students and quite good English (sparingly) with us. Sifu Eddie uses English, a lot, but also Cantonese with Cantonese speakers and Mandarin with Mandarin speakers. He also has passable Italian and Manchu skills. Their romanization scheme is purely phonetic, they seem to take no heed of pinyin, Yale, Wade-Giles, Mandarin or Cantonese when they romanize. T'ai Chi Ch'uan is romanized "Tai Chi Chuan" or "Tai Kik Kune" in HK. They will always romanize "Wu" as Wu, even when the rest of the name is romanized with a Cantonese pronunciation, Wu Ta-hsin …Ç´óÐÂ as Wu Tai Sin, for example. They will use "Ng" (the Cantonese pronunciation of Wu) for personal reasons, drivers licences, etc., but for business it is always Wu. Myself, I tend to use Wade-Giles (it's what I grew up using), but I truly find neither that or pinyin satisfactory ("Q" for Ch?). I find that I am starting to use pinyin more here as a courtesy to you guys, but the whole situation will be an unsatisfactory mess until I learn to read and write Chinese.

Cheers,
P.


[This message has been edited by Polaris (edited 06-06-2004).]
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Postby DavidJ » Sun Jun 06, 2004 4:07 am

Hi lob, Audi,

I believe that TCC was originated by a group of people working together, and the group consisted of diverse people knowledgeable in the areas of medicine, anatomy, martial arts, nutrition, etc.

There are many ways in which a thorough-going exercise may be put together, and because of this, and the prerequisite understanding of the demands of the human body, it is much much easier to begin with the exercise and thereafter find the set of comprehensive martial art moves that fulfill that pattern, than it is to go the other way around.

Another way of looking at this is that with the thorough-going exercise one didn't need the formal martial art to defend oneself. Martial input was introduced to help finalise the general pattern.

The martial arts before this lacked this overall whole body usage and found completion with the exercise portion.

I still think that what Bodiharma brought to the Shaolin temples was a form of TCC. People seem to miss the point that he taught the monks because they had become physically degenerate. In other words he taught them this martial art *for the purpose of exercise.*

Anyway, I think that the whole body usage, which is the hallmark of TCC, furthers the health which includes the meridians.

Regards,

David J
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