Yang Family Tai Chi Discussion Board

by **Anderzander** » Thu Sep 15, 2005 10:06 pm

Can anyone help me find any more info on Wu Yu Hsiang's Four characters?

I have a translation of them in Douglas Wile's T'ai Chi Touchstones (page 27) - though this does not include the original chinese terms.

It also leaves their meaning somewhat enigmatic, which I am sure they are!

I also have a video of Wang Hao Da, Ma Yue Liangs student, with a voice over describing the Four terms. On this the descripton is more direct but the terms perhaps poorly pronounced.

Can anyone point me to an alternative translation or offer any insights into this text.

If anyone wants I will write either of the sources I have sited above in a further post.

Stephen

by **Louis Swaim** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 2:06 am

Greetings Stephen,

You can find a partial alternative translation in Yang Jwing-ming's _T'ai Chi Secrets of the Wu and Li Styles_ (YMMA, 2001), pp. 13-15.

I've got to run to a meeting right now. Do you have some specific questions about this text? I'll do what I can to help.

Take care,
Louis

[This message has been edited by Louis Swaim (edited 09-15-2005).]

by **Anderzander** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 10:03 am

Thanks Louis

I don't have that book by YJM so I will put some questions together, thank you!.

I've got to go to work - so I will post this evening.

Stephen

by **goto** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 3:33 pm

Greetings Stephen,
what is Wu Yu Hsiang's Four characters,I don't know this term.And who is wu yu Hsiang,
If you can introduce him, may be i can find some material for you

Wang Hao Da ,i guess may be spelled wuang an da, who lived in shanghai and died few years ago.He claim to be the linage student,but in shanghai,only four people was the direct linage student of ma yue liangs without wang a da.If the peole you mentioned is same to the people i said, i think you'd better read the book of ma yue liang himself.

by **JerryKarin** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 5:08 pm

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by **JerryKarin** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 5:12 pm

I think this is the text:

·ó£º·óÕß£¬ÔËÆøÓÚÒÑÉí£¬·ó²¼±Ë¾¢Ö®ÉÏ£¬Ê¹²»µÃ¶¯Ò²¡£
¸Ç£º¸ÇÕß£¬ÒÔÆø¸Ç±ËÀ´´¦Ò²¡£
¶Ô£º¶ÔÕß£¬ÒÔÆø¶Ô±ËÀ´´¦£¬ÈÏ¶¨×¼Í·¶øÈ¥Ò²¡£
ÍÌ£ºÍÌÕß£¬ÒÔÆøÈ«ÍÌ¶øÈëÓÚ»¯Ò²¡£
´ËËÄ×ÖÎÞÐÎÎÞÉù£¬·Ç¶®¾¢ºó£¬Á·µ½¼«¾«µØÎ»Õß£¬²»ÄÜÖªÈ«¡£ÊÇÒÔÆøÑÔ£¬ÄÜÖ±ÑøÆäÆø¶øÎÞº¦£¬Ê¹ÄÜÊ©ÓÚËÄÌå£¬ËÄÌå²»ÑÔ¶øÓ÷ÒÓ¡£

by **JerryKarin** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 5:26 pm

Might be easier to read here: http://www.wushu-health.com/wushudianji/taijiquan/images/wushi/34.jpg

[This message has been edited by JerryKarin (edited 09-16-2005).]

by **JerryKarin** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 5:41 pm

Translation from T.Y. Pang: http://www.martialtaichi.com/Tai%20Chi%20Classics%20-17.htm

by **Louis Swaim** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 5:53 pm

Greetings,

Yes, the text Jerry posted is the correct one. Maybe I could do a translation of this later. The reason I say Yang Jwing-ming’s translation is partial is that he doesn’t include the last two lines, which I’m fairly certain belong to the original text. They include an allusion to the Mencius (Mengzi).

Regarding the four terms themselves, fu means "to spread," to arrange or array one's own energy. Gai means "to cover" the opponent's energy as it emerges. Dui means "to counter" or match the opponent’s movements in a focused way. Tun means "to swallow," or to absorb the attack of the opponent.

Ah, Jerry, I forgot about the T.Y. Pang translation. That one’s pretty good.

Take care,
Louis

by **Yuri Snisarenko** » Sat Sep 17, 2005 4:23 am

Greetings everyone

Louis,
Did you analyze Hao Yueru's (Hao Weizhen's son) commentary to this text? There are a couple of phrases that I don’t understand. However it seems very interesting and sheds some light to the meaning of the original laconic statements of Wu Yuxiang.

Take care,

Yuri

[This message has been edited by Yuri Snisarenko (edited 09-17-2005).]

by **Louis Swaim** » Sat Sep 17, 2005 4:37 pm

Greetings Yuri,

I can't seem to locate Hao Yueru's commentary to this text. Could you tell me where to look?

Thank you,
Louis

by **Yuri Snisarenko** » Sat Sep 17, 2005 6:24 pm

Greetings Louis,

Here is the text:
http://www.taijimgx.com/Article_Show.asp?ArticleID=532

If you find something insightful there, please share it with us

by **JerryKarin** » Sat Sep 17, 2005 6:42 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Yuri Snisarenko:
Greetings Louis,

Here is the text:
http://www.taijimgx.com/Article_Show.asp?ArticleID=532

If you find something insightful there, please share it with us

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is pretty interesting stuff. For example for Spread, he has: "This means the two arms don't entrap, grab, or hold, but just spread over the other's body, and using qi spread on top of his strength, as light as steam, cause him to be unable to find the tiniest bit of power (li); by essence (jing), qi, and spirit (shen) threading throughout, cause him to have not the slightest room for movement and be totally unable to motivate (me)."

by **JerryKarin** » Sat Sep 17, 2005 6:45 pm

There is some other interesting material about Hao Yueru to be found here: http://5-gold.com/simplified/simtaichi07.htm

by **JerryKarin** » Sat Sep 17, 2005 6:56 pm

Hao Yueru fleshes out the original text in interesting ways, but to be honest, none of this is much use to the average practitioner. Most are still struggling with the basics and would be well served by trying to get a more concrete grasp of the ten essentials and notions like full/empty, silk reeling, etc.

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