Wu Yu Hsiang's Four characters

[JerryKarin]

There are some good examples of Hao Yueru's writing in Taijiquan Quanshu, which collects together some of the principal works of Chen, Yang, Wu, Wu and Sun styles. Notable is "Wu Style Taijiquan Essentials" in which he explains a list of 13 essentials which is quite different from the 10 given by Yang Chengfu.

Here's an example: "9. To have the intent of movement but not yet move, that is to be prepared to move, this is called teng nuo."


[This message has been edited by JerryKarin (edited 09-17-2005).]

[Anderzander]

Hey this looks great - please don't stop Jerry it looks very useful to me!

[This message has been edited by Anderzander (edited 09-17-2005).]

[JerryKarin]

Cover: "This is to use qi to cover the other's strength (jing) yet without causing him to bolt in fright, make his strength, though it be double mine, be unable to emerge."

[JerryKarin]

Oppose: "In this one must recognize the target of the other's strength, use qi to oppose the other's portion, and completely matching the size, length, and fineness or coarseness of the other's strength, circulate energy (yun jing) like forging steel one hundred times - what hardness would not crumble?"


[This message has been edited by JerryKarin (edited 09-17-2005).]

[JerryKarin]

Swallow: "In this one must use ones vast qi and position (qi4shi4) to surround the other's entire body, as well as swallowing up all of his strength (jing), and in addition transform it, causing his strength (jingli) no matter how large to inevitably fall into a place where his entire power is extinguished."

[JerryKarin]

Gee we should probably get together a Saturday morning club where we meet at a restaurant in SF, drink pots of tea and eat dianxin and read through some texts like this together.

[This message has been edited by JerryKarin (edited 09-17-2005).]

[Louis Swaim]

Greetings All,

Wow, I was out on a morning hike in the Oakland hills, and now when I get back, you guys have eaten all of the dimsum! Is there any tea left? Yuri, thank you for linking to the Hao Yueru commentary, and Jerry, thanks for the great translations.

I think Hao Yueru is among the more important modern interpreters of taiji theory. I’ve read quite a bit of his and Hao Shaoru’s stuff in the _Taijiquan quan shu_ compendium, and it’s always fascinating. Some of his explanations of that intriguing concept, “tengnuo,” have come up in past discussion threads on this board.

This stuff is certainly very subtle theory, but in my opinion, it’s always useful to ponder the upper reaches of taiji theory. Naturally, the proof in in the pudding, but if you’ve never looked at the receipe, you may never get any pudding made. Some of these concept may seem abstract and etherial at first, but eventually in the middle of doing the form, or while doing push hands, it begins to come alive.

Take care,
Louis

[Anderzander]

Plenty of tea left Louis,

Thank you very much Jerry - that has helped clear up a few questions I had and perhaps we can meet for that cup of tea when I make my first visit to SF next year.

Goto - you can read about Wu Yu Hsiang here: http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Wu/Hao-style-T'ai-Chi-Ch'uan



[This message has been edited by Anderzander (edited 09-17-2005).]

[Anderzander]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Louis Swaim:
I think Hao Yueru is among the more important modern interpreters of taiji theory. I’ve read quite a bit of his and Hao Shaoru’s stuff in the _Taijiquan quan shu_ compendium, and it’s always fascinating. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Does this mean we can look forward to a possible new work of translation Louis?

All of this type of material can only help enrich the practice of those without access to the original language material

[goto]

Greetings All
Thanks Anderzander.
I know who is Wu Yu Hsiang ,which in china is called wu yu xiang.As he say, four character is an advanced level for people who have a high skills in hand-pushing.For beginner,it is worthless.
Because of its enigmic meaning, a lot of people misunderstand them in hand-pushing .

In my opinion,four characters is only a kind of feeling based on a lot of experience in his high level hand-pushing and form-practicing. If you can reach his feeling, it is easy for you to understand it, if you can not,do not take much time on this .
I will consult some chinese explaination materials for them and search more clear explainations.



Peace

[Yuri Snisarenko]

Jerry,
thank you for the translation!!! This morning started off with this big nice surprise for me I really enjoyed reading the thread because it was explaining some turbid places in the text for me.

BTW after the first reading of Hao Yuery's text, I came to the same thought that it is too advanced material for such amateur as me. These techniques require really deep understanding and experience of using qi. I believe, this is one of the most difficult points for an amateur – how to affect opponent's jin by our qi.

On the other hand, for example, DUI (oppose) may be applied in simplify way as pre strike after the opponent's attack begins but before it gets strong (on an early stage, when it's comparatively weak). However, of course, this is not exactly that subtle originally intended meaning of the technique.

I have a couple of questions, I understand their difficulty, and would appreciate any comments.

1) " cause him to be unable to find the tiniest bit of power (li).." his LI (power) or my LI ???

2) what does actually "de2 li4 zhi1 chu4' (for "spread") mean? I saw it in Chinese texts in the net quite often but could not figure out its exact meaning?

3) " cause him to have not the slightest room for movement and be totally unable to motivate (me)." could this part of the original text also mean:
" and therefore there is no even slightest activity remain in him, so he cannot do an explosive movement." ??

Thanks All for the good posts!



[This message has been edited by Yuri Snisarenko (edited 09-18-2005).]

[goto]

To Yuri Snisarenko

1) " cause him to be unable to find the tiniest bit of power (li).." his LI (power) or my LI ???
the li means my power(li) was so light that he can not find any place to circulate his power.So it means my power

3) " cause him to have not the slightest room for movement and be totally unable to motivate (me)." could this part of the original text also mean:
" and therefore there is no even slightest activity remain in him, so he cannot do an explosive movement." ??
I guess the sentence means you have totally controlled him by your essence (jing), qi, and spirit (shen),,no matter his is active or silent.In my opinion,these two sentences have the same meaning

'delizhichu.'de means to gain or obtain something,li means power,"zhichu 'for a place or space.The phrase means a place which you can gain power.For example,when you push on a tree,because it is firm, you use power easily without losing you balance.
However,when you push on a paper in the air,if you use power to push,you will touch nothing and unable to find any tiniest power ,that means you cannot find a place to circulate your power.In hand pushing facing this situation, when you use power,you will find nothing to push,and sometimes will lose your center of gravity.

Peace

[Yuri Snisarenko]

Goto,
thank you very much for the excellent explanation!

[Louis Swaim]

Greetings Yuri,

Regarding the phrase delizhichu, I would point out that li4 here does not necessarily refer exclusively to strength. The phrase de2li4 can also mean to get the advantage or benefit in a situation. If I want to establish a stategic advantage, I must first disable the opponent from establishing his own. In English, we talk about “getting a purchase.” When you want to lift and move something heavy, you must first make sure that you have gotten a “purchase” on the object, or in other words, you have your footing, have a proper grip, and you know you will be able to maintain your balance once you have lifted the object. This extends metaphorically into other situations. For example, in political or military situations, we talk of a particular policy or strategy as enabling one to establish a purchase, or getting “traction.” The notion of establishing a stategic advantage by disabling an opponent from doing so is a well-established military theory found in Sunzi and elsewhere.

I would suggest reading Hao Yueru’s comment here in the light of the classical taijiquan idea: “deji deshi” —seize the opportunity and strategic advantage.

Take care,
Louis


[This message has been edited by Louis Swaim (edited 09-19-2005).]

[Yuri Snisarenko]

Greetings Louis,

Thank you! You bring me to think about these four characters from another perspective, namely from the point of view of strategic advantage. Good analogies of the political tactics and "getting a purchase"! His disadvantage is our advantage… in the case of "delizhichu" it's impossible to think about them separately!

Take care,

Yuri


[This message has been edited by Yuri Snisarenko (edited 09-18-2005).]