More gudang

Postby Yuri Snisarenko » Wed Jul 19, 2006 6:30 am

Greetings,

Louis,
thank you for pointing out to this phrase with gudang. I think it really sheds some light on the meaning of this notion.

My translation-interpretation is:

"Qi being [gently] stirred [up] with the transformations of the postures moves according to the posture tendency."



[This message has been edited by Yuri Snisarenko (edited 07-19-2006).]
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Postby Pamela » Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:40 pm

Chi does sing the inner song,
is most grateful when well "sung".
Posture playing minds intent,
humming with the spirits tongue.

Chi it bows and bends to will,
of the beings conscious strike.
Resonating like the gong,
what is thrumming in the psyche.

Chi is formless energy,
imbued by spirit, mind and heart.
Biding in cloaks well configured,
binds trinity never to part.

Chi xie xie gudang, I gesture,
qi is grateful for smooth passage.
To manifest the spirits song,
expressing concise and clear message.

[This message has been edited by Pamela (edited 07-20-2006).]
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Postby Louis Swaim » Thu Jul 20, 2006 12:15 am

Greetings,

I translated shi as ‘configuration’ because I think that is the meaning in Li Yiyu’s phrase. I don’t consider it a buzzword, nor is it a difficult word to understand. It is true that a number of modern scholars use ‘configuration’ as one of several definitions for shi, but that is because it is a good one—one that captures the meaning of an important term, especially as it was used in the Sunzi and other early military texts (bingfa). Configuration means “a relative arrangement of parts or elements.” Here, it is the configuration of the body, but it is the configuration of the body inclusive with, and in relationship to the environment, i.e., to the ground, gravity, the atmosphere, and, if applicable, a partner or opponent. As Jerry puts it, it includes “the context” of the movement, body, or posture—not just the movement, body, or posture in isolation. Shi implies “circumstance,” but too often the word circumstance indicates something outside of oneself and beyond one’s control, as in “a victim of circumstance.” Shi does not connote this sort of conflict or dichotomy, but is rather the entire arrangement of things in a given moment. (If I were to say ‘gestalt,’ that would probably qualify as a buzzword.) It is the configuration of the body from the inside and the outside, its awareness and intent, in its hard and soft aspects, its liquid and solid aspects, and its empty and full aspects—in the way the body breathes and in the way it moves, balances and aligns. Like shi, the word configuration is not only structural (shape, contour), but functional. Thus, shi has sometimes been translated as “power.” It is, however, power that is a function and result of a configuration. The Sunzi’s classical illustration of this meaning of shi is the potential power of logs or boulders on a hillside or cliff, or the potential power of a crossbow. The taiji term jin could well be understood as the functional power resulting from trained configurations of the body. We know from other taiji documents that the “qi should be roused and made vibrant.” When Li Yiyu said “qi sui shi gudang,” he seemed to be saying something about the manner in which it is done. “The qi is roused and made vibrant according to the configuration.” It is not independent of the shape, contour, or environment, but is consonant with them from moment to moment.

D’accord?

Louis
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Postby Pamela » Thu Jul 20, 2006 3:04 am

Greetings,

The chi is "roused and made vibrant" through the configuration of being sung (song?) by successfully applying the ten essentials...throughout the application of configurations of variously combined energies (the movements/postures of the form)...N'est-ce-pas???

Would one say Jin is the final product of these two configurations?

Pamela
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Postby Yuri Snisarenko » Thu Jul 20, 2006 5:32 am

Pamela,

Thank you for the poetry. You know I am just reading Daoism related text that contains phrases consonant to your verse.


Louis,

If you wish to take a look at the usage of gudang in the daojiao material, it's here in the end of the second paragraph:

http://www.taoism.org.hk/taoist-world-today/current-info-on-taoist-temples/lecture26.h tm


[This message has been edited by Yuri Snisarenko (edited 07-20-2006).]
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Postby Richard Man » Thu Jul 20, 2006 8:27 am

Ha ha, my apology. I finally slogged thru most of the Conscious Movement thread (bamboo_leaf is right, you guys write a lot :-) ) and noted that there is already a discussion of Qi Yi Gu Dang's meaning.

BTW, the word aroused is also an interpretation :-)

Qi <changing body postures> <some metaphor with drum vibrating>

As a part time translator myself, although miles below Louis and Jerry, I think it's fruitless to try to translate certain terms and then stick with use the same translation everywhere. Chinese is more elastic than that, IMHO. I would leave Gu Dang as is and *interpret/define* the term elsewhere. It's the same fruitless thing to do to translate Qi.

re: Sui shi, perhaps just translate it as :movements:? Configuration, "following postures" etc. seem to be over-translate to me. I don't know if Li Yi Yu intended anything more than "movement" to Shi.

FWIW.
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Postby Richard Man » Thu Jul 20, 2006 8:30 am

re: Gu Dang Jin

In reference to this video of a Wu Tu Nan student: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwxBKGcG5zA

Look to about 32 seconds in, there is some sort of hand shaking thing going on there. Some guy claims that is the Gu Dang Jin.

FWIW.
// richard
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Postby Pamela » Thu Jul 20, 2006 1:27 pm

Hello Yuri,

Thank YOU for reading. Image

I must say, I am intrigued by this Taoist related text you link us to. Unfortunately, I do not read Chinese. I would be very interested in understanding that passage you are refering to...the end of its second paragraph...
I was wondering if you would be so kind as to propose an english interpretation, raw or refined, of this material, if, of course, you are not uncomfortable in such an attempt.

Thank you,
Pamela
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Postby Yuri Snisarenko » Thu Jul 20, 2006 2:49 pm

Hello Pamela,

I am afraid I cannot translate that because the text is difficult and touches on subtle issues that don't relate directly to the topic we discuss. It's about daoists practice – the thing that is very hard to translate and properly understand without qualified follower. That phrase is about what we might call "higher state of perception", when there are partly presence, partly absence and gudang.



[This message has been edited by Yuri Snisarenko (edited 07-20-2006).]
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Postby Pamela » Thu Jul 20, 2006 3:33 pm

Greetings Yuri,

Now, with a glimpse of the idea behind the text...I am even more intrigued! With a couple of pieces to the jigsaw...my mind is courting all kinds of possibilities Image alas~

I do understand though, Yuri, thanks for taking your time to explain...

Best wishes,
Pamela
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Postby Louis Swaim » Thu Jul 20, 2006 4:51 pm

Greetings Yuri,

Re: "If you wish to take a look at the usage of gudang in the daojiao material, it's here in the end of the second paragraph. . ."

Thanks for finding this. I may try to take a crack at this later. I can more or less track what's going on in the document.

Check out chapter 6 of the Dao de jing:
http://www.edepot.com/taoc.html

--Louis



[This message has been edited by Louis Swaim (edited 07-20-2006).]
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Postby Louis Swaim » Thu Jul 20, 2006 4:54 pm

Greetings Pamela,

In your poem and elsewhere you allude to qi being "grateful." I'm in the dark as to what that means. Are you anthropomorphizing qi?

Take care,
Louis
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Postby Pamela » Thu Jul 20, 2006 5:45 pm

Hi Louis,

I'd really like to see you "take a crack" at that Taoist passage, I am curious~

"In your poem and elsewhere you allude to qi being "grateful." I'm in the dark as to what that means. Are you anthropomorphizing qi?"

Anthropomorphizing? Oof, that sounds like I might be torturing the poor entity! It is quite an exercise for the tongue.

Actually I got the idea from your typo? was it a typo? when you wrote earlier "qi shi shi gudang"...Shi shi(or maybe xixi?)~Thank you Image ...simply a pun. Did kind of make sense to me though. Somehow I though you'd pick up the play on expression instantly...alas~ Makes sense to me (sheepish grin)

Sorry for any confusion the inclusion of that word has caused.

Good day! Image
Pamela


[This message has been edited by Pamela (edited 07-20-2006).]
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Postby Louis Swaim » Thu Jul 20, 2006 5:58 pm

Hi Pamela,

Hmmm. Yes, that was a typo. Should have been qi sui shi gudang.

"Thank you?" That would be "xie xie."

Still (deep) in the dark,

--Louis
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Postby Pamela » Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:07 pm

Hi Louis,

Ah...xie xie...Thank you Image

Hm...why so confused by that Louis?

As a poet with a colorful imagination I gave qi a conscious mind and allowed him/her Image to experience comfort at being given the proper sung posture... or clear passage through the body.

I would think that someone with so much experience in metaphors and translation of colorful language to understandable, scholarly notation would grasp that flourish with ease...

Unless of course I am off mark, and you are in the dark about something other than what I am explaining.

If so please clarify what is bothering you and I will try my best to respond.

xie xie,
Pamela

[This message has been edited by Pamela (edited 07-20-2006).]
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