Occupying the opponent's center

Postby bamboo leaf » Tue Sep 12, 2006 5:03 am

Fist in mind, really understand and practice this.

Before you move, it occurs in your mind. The training of taiji is one of directly training the shen, yi, and qi.

Training to understand and feel the intent of movement before the movement happens. First in your own body then after a while in another’s.

The ocean has crest and troughs yet there is no gap in its surface. It matches the air and wind exactly at the same time and same direction. This is what is meant by joining and following.

Many high level masters have the same type of skills, that you saw. But unfortunately there are not that many high level masters around. So much so that when people view these demos or trainings they feel its faked or stage. Such is the skill level that they cant even imagine it.

(His ability to hone in on what was relevant (obstructed, stuck, solid) in the demo guy was phenomenal)

Look again and watch his eyes. He is leading the others intent, and useing his own. Following is leading, leading is following. Before the others movement is manifested he leads it out.


[This message has been edited by bamboo leaf (edited 09-12-2006).]
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Postby tccstudent_usa » Tue Sep 12, 2006 5:07 pm

nice clip Leaf. What is his name?

[This message has been edited by tccstudent_usa (edited 09-12-2006).]
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Postby Bob Ashmore » Tue Sep 12, 2006 7:34 pm

NICE video of Chen Manching at this site.
Not on topic, but I liked it.
The vids of TT Liang, while a tad grainy, are quite nice too.

Not a single thing on topic here, but I liked the vids.


[This message has been edited by Bob Ashmore (edited 09-13-2006).]
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Postby DPasek » Wed Sep 13, 2006 4:37 pm

“The training of taiji is one of directly training the shen, yi, and qi.” – Bamboo Leaf

Bamboo Leaf,

You obviously have put a lot of work into studying Yi (and Shen and Qi) as it relates to Taijiquan, and I greatly appreciate your sharing on this forum. I was wondering if you would mind posting a list of those individuals that you know of that are capable of demonstrating this aspect of our art. While it would be quite difficult at this time for me to travel out of the country to experience teachers with these skills, I would definitely like to know who possesses these skills on the chance that I may some day be in a position to experience their instructions.

I have felt several things in Taijiquan that I doubt can be explained purely on a physical level, but I have not had the fortune to feel what Kal described in her post. Even when I think that I am intellectually (spiritually?) open to certain ideas, there is often an unconscious resistance that may be overcome by direct experience. I think that Kal was fortunate to experience this as it seems like these skills are not often demonstrated, and if one never experience them, then it is often difficult to work towards them in ones own practice.

Thanks,
DP
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Postby bamboo leaf » Wed Sep 13, 2006 5:33 pm

http://www.searchcentertaichi.com/search.html

http://www.imperialtaichi.com/

http://www.taijiquandao.com/03paginasingles/05masters/05weishuren.htm

a couple of sites that hopefully will give some an insight into the practice. Each site comes at it from a slightly different perspective.


(Wei Shuren y yo (de visita) Wei Shu Ren wanted to give an explanation about “qi” to Zhang Xiumu.They were both standing, first they had done some hand contact. Zhang was opposite Wei, so he held Zhang’s shoulders through his t-shirt, using his thumb, index and middle finger of each hand, as when you hang clothes up to dry, then made a small gesture and Zhang bounced as a puppet making a short hop upwards and backwards.

The funny thing was that the gesture Wei Shu Ren had done was somewhat like beating downwards. When I saw it I had the impression that Wei hadn’t done anything to him and that Zhang had jumped by himself, but when I asked him he said that , although he himself had jumped, he hadn’t done it voluntarily, but driven by something which urged him to do it...from his feet! I t was as ifWei had sent his “qi” through Zhang’s body, to the floor, and then it had bounced making him jump.)

The fist clips that I posted, all show the same idea, all are related to the idea of occupying another’s center. Not many people really work on this aspect.

Most that do, from my experience are rather quite about it. I think they are quite for the obvious reasons that most will tend not to believe until they themselves experience it, something I never quite understand due to the nature of taiji I would expect most if not all to understand the basic assumptions made for such things to work.

As for posting a listing, I think it would be more beneficial to understand that anyone can do this provided that, that is the direction of their own work.
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Postby bamboo leaf » Wed Sep 13, 2006 8:36 pm

http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/taiji/weishuren1.html

(Every movement and posture of the boxing routine practice should have, as the boxing classics say, "Intent in first place" (/Yi Zai Xian/), Intention should guide the form from the beginning to the end, one should not practice "empty movements" even for a short moment. For example in the Commencing Form, before the hands raise and the movement is born from utmost stillness, Intention has already started to control the whole body so that all its parts one by one have been adjusted according to the Internal Skill principles.

When the practice reaches the intermediary level, there are many principles, every movement and posture have one kind of fixed principles, and the principles between two movements may mutually alternate and derive from each other.

On the high level the accumulation and changes of principles appear naturally, without thinking. My teacher once said, during routine practice, when movements and Methods are harmoniously combined so that they strictly follow ones Intent, at that moment a subtle and profound (phenomena) may develop.

The whole body is transparent and empty, one forgets about oneself and is non-active - this high level starts from learning to soften hands and wrists. Every step and every move should be completely guided by the principles of boxing movements, and only later one can gradually attain the level of complete relaxation, transparency and emptiness.)

Some things to consider. What is the level of ones own practice. Beginning, intermediate, advanced or high level.
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Postby Audi » Thu Sep 14, 2006 12:48 am

Hi all,

I looked at Wang Peishen's clip, and he certainly showed great skill. I must confess, however, that I did not see anything outside of what I understand to be standard theory.

I could not understand almost any of the audio, but could see some of the characters at the bottom of the screen. He seemed to be discussing how the eight energies interact with each other. First he shows Wardoff. Then he shows how Rollback can counter Wardoff. Then it seems as if he instructs his partner to use Press to counter Rollback, and then shows how Push (An energy) can counteract Rollback. He then shows some Split applications, followed by some Pluck applications.

I cannot follow all the subtleties of what is shown in the video clip, but much of the time Wei's energy usage seemes pretty clear; for instance, when he does Rollback you can see how he applies Adhering (Zhan). In other cases, he exploits a difference between full and empty to take his partner down or change his energy flow. The direction of his applications also seems to match what I have been taught to expect.

For me, concepts like "Yi" are both extraordinarily ordinary, but also deep. Most New Yorkers who walk the public streets know how to use "Yi" and "Shen" to ward off potential attacks, even from the other side of a street. Some know how to use "Yi" and "Shen" even during a run-of-the-mill attack. But few can use these concepts during a determined and skilled attack.

Again, for me, the trick is not to concentrate solely on Shen, Yi, or Qi, but to understand in practice how these three combine and interact and to put the hard physical and mental work into making the concepts live. Whether beginner or high level, the issue should be the same. The only difference should be in the depth of understanding and the ability to put it into practice.

In Yang Zhenduo's book, he published the "Yang Forty Chapters." Even though this was once "secret" material, it was published in a book that also has "beginner" material in it, even pictures.

The Ten Essentials are themselves both quite simple and specific, but also very deep and subtle. I noticed that one of the referenced websites talked at length about the importance of not engaging in mere physical movement, but then referred to the Ten Essential to discuss the necessary inner content. For me, this is both Tai Chi 101 and Nobel Prize material.

Take care,
Audi
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Postby bamboo leaf » Thu Sep 14, 2006 1:40 am

I would say no, the idea is not extraordinarily ordinary, even among many Chinese stylist its quite rear and not common. Many can talk about it but actually few very few can do it.
http://v2.56.com/id1761120.html
try this one showing and talking about the same things.
(Whether beginner or high level, the issue should be the same. The only difference should be in the depth of understanding and the ability to put it into practice.)

my own reading and understanding of this means that due to ones level the practice changes, the issues are very different.

(My training partner said that at higher levels, there's no external movement, but each partner is chasing the other like two little mice running around inside until boom, one flys out.)

not so good at typing, if you look at the clips posted you will see different high level applications showing this happen.
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Postby Bob Ashmore » Thu Sep 14, 2006 12:23 pm

Without any external movement there will be no amount of "flying out" for anyone. I don't care how refined your Yi/Qi/Shen may be, without any external movement your opponent, partner, whatever, will not be going anywhere.
"If my opponent does not move I do not move, if my opponent moves I move first." Where in this statement do you see "I won't move at all and my opponent will go flying with the force of my Yi/Shi/Intent alone"?
At EXTREMELY high levels the movement used to make your partner also move may be extremely subtle, it may be difficult to detect with the naked eye, but if you're trying to say that with NO external movement on your part someone can be made to bounce away from you...
This can be disproven easily. I have done so many times, will gladly do so again any time you'd like.
It might be better to say, "With movements so subtle and precise they are nearly undectable my partner can be made to fly out" rather than "no movement".
Semantics? Yes. But important none the less.

Bob



[This message has been edited by Bob Ashmore (edited 09-14-2006).]
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Postby tccstudent_usa » Thu Sep 14, 2006 3:10 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by bamboo leaf:
<B>I would say no, the idea is not extraordinarily ordinary, even among many Chinese stylist its quite rear and not common. Many can talk about it but actually few very few can do it.
http://v2.56.com/id1761120.html
try this one showing and talking about the same things.
(Whether beginner or high level, the issue should be the same. The only difference should be in the depth of understanding and the ability to put it into practice.)

my own reading and understanding of this means that due to ones level the practice changes, the issues are very different.

(My training partner said that at higher levels, there's no external movement, but each partner is chasing the other like two little mice running around inside until boom, one flys out.)

not so good at typing, if you look at the clips posted you will see different high level applications showing this happen.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That clip looks valid to me. Nice work.
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Postby bamboo leaf » Thu Sep 14, 2006 5:27 pm

(If my opponent does not move I do not move, if my opponent moves I move first." Where in this statement do you see "I won't move at all and my opponent will go flying with the force of my Yi/Shi/Intent alone"? )

Find someone to translate some of what he is saying then decide if his work follows what he says.

(If my opponent does not move I do not move, if my opponent moves I move first)

Again look at the first post and put this in context with the posters experiences and question. There are levels, the upper levels deal with the intent of movement rather then the movement itself. How else can one start late but arrive first.

(At EXTREMELY high levels the movement used to make your partner also move may be extremely subtle, it may be difficult to detect with the naked eye, but if you're trying to say that with NO external movement on your part someone can be made to bounce away from you...)

Not arguing or trying to prove or disprove. Follow the idea of shen, yi, qi make it a realty of your own practice the questions will answer themselves. If not there will be no answer that will make sense. All the clips that I posted show the same skills at work. Depending on ones viewpoint and experience they will tend to see different things.

(This can be disproven easily. I have done so many times, will gladly do so again any time you'd like.)

What dose this mean, for some its not a reality that they can accept, for others they can, either through experience or intuitively. All things shown, posted are in reference to the first post nothing more.
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Postby yslim » Thu Sep 14, 2006 6:10 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Bob Ashmore:
<B>Without any external movement there will be no amount of "flying out" for anyone. I don't care how refined your Yi/Qi/Shen may be, without any external movement your opponent, partner, whatever, will not be going anywhere.
"If my opponent does not move I do not move, if my opponent moves I move first." Where in this statement do you see "I won't move at all and my opponent will go flying with the force of my Yi/Shi/Intent alone"?
At EXTREMELY high levels the movement used to make your partner also move may be extremely subtle, it may be difficult to detect with the naked eye, but if you're trying to say that with NO external movement on your part someone can be made to bounce away from you...
This can be disproven easily. I have done so many times, will gladly do so again any time you'd like.
It might be better to say, "With movements so subtle and precise they are nearly undectable my partner can be made to fly out" rather than "no movement".
Semantics? Yes. But important none the less.

Bob



[This message has been edited by Bob Ashmore (edited 09-14-2006).]</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Hi Bob,

Some of us know that Taiji is so deep there is no need to disproven nor proved. It is a journey seen going no where and one can end up somewhere...If one can empty ones ego to reach something call 'fong sung'.The hardest fong sung in taiji is the ego. With ego one will forever stucked in the "skill" process of Taiji. I'm still working on it and I almost get to like it some itme.

The funny side of Taiji...For those who deos not believe such skill is believable, no need to explain. For those who had experienced it,explain no need.

I wish you luck someday you have a chance to 'run into' such skilled Taiji master can make you speechless at your "move first" before his 'undetectable fullness' move... But mean time try to look at this site www.doubledragoalliance.com It is a workshop in China in Nov.2006 and click on the teachers who will taught in this workshop,scroll down to check it out on Grand Master DONG BIN push hand clip. If you like his funny skill and the good news is you can go there experience it if you want it. I wish I have the money to go. Maybe I should practice the Yi over Lottery.

Ciao, may you have a fong sung day
yslim
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Postby yslim » Thu Sep 14, 2006 6:27 pm

Hi Bob

Sorry I goofred. I am new how to work this BB. I missed type the n for dragon on the web site for you to look at. Please try this

www.doubledragonalliance.com

Ciao
yslim
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by yslim:
<B>
Hi Bob,

Some of us know that Taiji is so deep there is no need to disproven nor proved. It is a journey seen going no where and one can end up somewhere...If one can empty ones ego to reach something call 'fong sung'.The hardest fong sung in taiji is the ego. With ego one will forever stucked in the "skill" process of Taiji. I'm still working on it and I almost get to like it some itme.

The funny side of Taiji...For those who deos not believe such skill is believable, no need to explain. For those who had experienced it,explain no need.

I wish you luck someday you have a chance to 'run into' such skilled Taiji master can make you speechless at your "move first" before his 'undetectable fullness' move... But mean time try to look at this site www.doubledragonalliance.com It is a workshop in China in Nov.2006 and click on the teachers who will taught in this workshop,scroll down to check it out on Grand Master DONG BIN push hand clip. If you like his funny skill and the good news is you can go there experience it if you want it. I wish I have the money to go. Maybe I should practice the Yi over Lottery.

Ciao, may you have a fong sung day
yslim

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



[This message has been edited by yslim (edited 09-14-2006).]
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Postby Bob Ashmore » Thu Sep 14, 2006 7:04 pm

Yslim,
I know you believe what you are saying is true, but it has simply never been backed up by fact.
If you don't move physically, you are not going to move your opponent.
I understand that the movement can be minute, so minor as to be nearly neglible, but you still move.
The problem with your scenario is that it doesn't take into account simple physics.
Without an action, there can be no reaction.
What you are trying to describe would be classified as magic; point your finger and he flies away, or more simply, no movement produces movement. It just doesn't happen that way in the real world.
If I ever meet the Master who can point his finger at someone and make them fly out, then I'll buy it. I haven't met him yet, and I've tried.

If you're comfortable believing that people can perform real magic, go with that. I wouldn't wish to shatter anyones belief system. But...
Take it with a grain of salt.

Now, don't for one moment think I'm saying that there aren't some pretty wild and wonderful things in this world. Because I'm not.
I have known some Masters who could send me flying without the tiniest APPARENT motion. It sure doesn't look like they moved at all.
But when asked, every single one of them has explained to me that they do indeed move. The movements are small but very well aligned so that the reaction they produce appears to be miraculous.
So I know that it's going to be easy to believe this can be done. Looking at it, it sure appears to be that way.
But to a man they have all freely admitted that they do move.
Anyone who tries to peddle that they don't is perhaps being less than truthfull with you.

Maybe this will help:
If someone sells you a diamond watch for ten cents, chances are you're buying a watch that's not worth a nickel.

Bob

Bob
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Postby Bob Ashmore » Thu Sep 14, 2006 7:20 pm

When I said I have disproved this, I meant just that.
I have asked three supposed "Masters" who claimed to be able to do this to do it to me.
BUT...
I put in the caveat that I will have poeple holding onto various important points of their body. Only two of them took me up on it after that, by the way.
Neither one of them was able to hold up to that test.
The people holding their elbows, hips and knees have reported movement, both times.
Simple test, hard to beat, and they failed it.
To the opponent himself, to the crowd standing there, it looks like they don't move. THEY may even believe they weren't. But in fact they did.
Not much, but then again not much is required.
Again, I'm not taking anything away from these folks.
I went flying. No question.
But they moved. No question about that either.
Their skill level is higher than mine, no doubt obtains about that either. Maybe the highest, who knows. But still...
Movement. Undeniable.
I don't put this in the same category as those who claim to be able to send people flying without actually touching them. I put this more in the "Aw, c'mon now" category. There's a trick to it, sure, but it sure is fun to watch.
AND, I sure wish I could do that!
So don't think I'm disparaging these folks. I'm not. All I'm saying is that they DO move in order to achieve the end they desire.

Now, all that said, you keep right on believing what you're believing. Nothing I say here is going to change your mind, obviously.
But I've put this type of thing to the empiracle test, and found it lacking. Not non-cool, not anything less than awe imspiring for the simple fact that they don't look like they are moving, but the movement is there.
A parlour trick, so to speak.
Hey, I've seen some pretty uber-cool parlour tricks in my day. This is one of the coolest.

Cheers,
Bob
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