Occupying the opponent's center

Postby yslim » Fri Sep 15, 2006 7:12 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kalamondin:
<B> Bummer--but you're right, I think I do have enough to work on for a few months/years/lifetime. Thanks so much for your insights and sharing your experiences.

My best and highest regards,
Kal

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Kal

I agreed with Bamboo leaf's advise to you is a wise one and will lead to the skill of Taiji process. so study it well. It will lead you how to get out of that unmoveable
force your had experienced.

Have you ever try to expanding your chong ding simultanously fong sung and alone with your ego to resist while you in that mess? with only YI of course.

Here is something for you to remember the Taiji by... power without 'li' (dumb-dumb force as Chinese would call it) is the 'empty force.' (EMPTY OF LI hard to detect) more you resist more empty it become to suck up more resistance for fuse that could make you unmoveable from it.

Ciao with a fong sung day
yslim
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Postby Bob Ashmore » Fri Sep 15, 2006 11:25 am

Jerry,
I can certainly believe that there are some people out there who are weak minded and can be lead, mentally, to do something against their will physically.
I've seen hypnosis demonstrations where people were told to cluck like chickens, bark like dogs and even begin to disrobe at the command of another, and they did, so I see that this type of thing can be done.
Since I'm not susceptible to being hypnotized, I've had college professors back in my day as a psych major (hey, I was young), full fledged psychiatrists, psychologists and even a side show hypnotist try it more than once and I've never succumbed, so I guess I discard that kind of thing pretty quickly as charlatinism.
The reason why is simple, it can't be done to me so I have a hard time giving it any credit.
In that context, I will concede that one person may be able to make another jump without moving himself.
You are correct, I had not considered that.
I guess if you can be made to cluck like a chicken or take off your clothes on command, you could be made to jump out in that way.

I stand corrected.
I was speaking only of one person making another move, physically, without moving himself.
Apples to oranges.
Since that was the claim I was debating, I will stand by what I have said but only in that context.

Like I said, it's uber-cool stuff.

I wonder what it's like to be able to be taken over in that context? I've never experienced it.
Too closed minded, I guess.
Or too strong in my own mind.
Whichever, I don't stay up nights worrying that someone will be able to make me fly like a bird by taking command of my yi.
Wish they could though. I'd sure like to fly!

I just flew in from Philadelphia, and boy are my arms tired!
;-)~

Bob
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Postby Bob Ashmore » Fri Sep 15, 2006 11:35 am

Oh, and by the by...

Next time any of y'all are at one of these demonstrations, just ask the Master who is showing this if you can touch his elbow or knee while he does it to someone else.
That's all I'm asking.
IF, and that's a MIGHTY BIG IF believe you me, any one of them will allow that...
You'll feel, rather than not see. Of that I have ZERO doubt.

And PUH-LEEZE people, let's not make "this is my LAST posting" type of statements simply because I don't agree with you.
I sincerely hope I don't have that kind of mental power over y'all's Yi.......
(Do I hear Twilight Zone music playing in the background?)

Cheers,
Bob
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Postby JerryKarin » Fri Sep 15, 2006 12:07 pm

Bob, I think that even in fairly ordinary push hands you can occasionally see someone feel that he is in danger of being pulled off his root and so pulls back strongly, whereupon a good practitioner simply adds a little force and the opponent goes flying back. It doesn't seem a big stretch to me to imagine this happening where the pusher doesn't need to add anything and the pushee just pushes himself out. In some of the film clips you see on the internet this appears to happen with so little movement on either side that one's credulity is sorely tested. I do think that "people don't value the jade in the Kunlun mountains, they value their own trinkets", poor as they may be, "because they are of some benefit to them". Wonderful as some of these feats may be, I actually find them less interesting than the more mundane sort of practice which I do every day.
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Postby bamboo leaf » Fri Sep 15, 2006 3:50 pm

(I can certainly believe that there are some people out there who are weak minded and can be lead, mentally, to do something against their will physically.)

maybe I should be more clear.

I have no wish to argue or be in a position of defending / proving something that I have experienced, work with and on, its pointless.

Bob, your whole idea of this is really far from what is happening it has nothing to do with being weak minded. There are processes which if one is not aware of in the body/mind that can be taken advantage of or used. The Chinese have a model that explains it pretty well, also allows one to understand and see what/why something happens.

[This message has been edited by bamboo leaf (edited 09-15-2006).]
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Postby Louis Swaim » Fri Sep 15, 2006 4:01 pm

Greetins Kal,

I wanted to elaborate in the light of day on what may have seemed a cryptic response to your observation regarding “visualization.”

Cognitive scientists like George Lakoff refer to a phenomenon they term “empathic projection.” This phenomenon comes into play in a number of arenas, including the learning of physical skills, the enjoyment of physical performances such as dance, drama, acrobatics, etc., and the learned ability to recognize and identify emotions through facial expressions and body language. It even operates in dreaming. What happens in empathic projection is that the neurological activity of sensory-motor programs is stimulated. The actual activation of the muscles, however, may not occur. So, for example, when you are watching a dance performance, your enjoyment is enabled and enhanced through the fact that your neural pathways are actually emulating the movements of the dancer. A child learns language through empathic projection. When she learns the word “yellow,” she may initially pronounce it “lellow,” until the muscles catch up with what the sensory-motor neurons are emulating. When we follow the movements of a taijiquan teacher, we emulate the movements by means of empathic projection—our motor neurons are mirroring in our own tissues what we observe in the teacher.

Lakoff has written about empathic projection in his book, _Philosophy in the Flesh: The Embodied Mind and its Challenge to Western Thought_. He notes that empathic projection enables experiences that one could call transcendent—experiences of being out of one’s body, or of being in the body of someone else, for example. However, the more that one understands the phenomenon of empathic projection, the more one understands that it is entirely rooted in somatic reality. Empathic projection is a function of immanence rather than transcendence. It is the way that we participate in the environment, and it takes place in our living tissues. That's my current experience.

Take care,
Louis
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Postby tccstudent_usa » Fri Sep 15, 2006 5:21 pm

I think B K Frantzis's account of pushing with Master Yang are very interesting. It sounds to me like he could play on that level of development. There are other accounts as well.

http://www.energyarts.com/hires/library/masters/yangshao.html
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Postby Louis Swaim » Fri Sep 15, 2006 5:32 pm

Greetings,

Another thing I would like to say about “yi” is that we commonly speak of intentionality in terms of “visualization.” To do so is to use a metaphor. The metaphor is grounded in seeing and sight, but that may be a limiting way of thinking about, expressing, or understanding yi. The Geaney analysis of yi that I referenced in the Conscious Movement thread (1st page) addressed this, where she states that “translating yi as ‘representation’ or ‘idea’ is misleading, because of the visual connotation of these terms in much of the Western philosophical tradition. Emphasis on the visual is belied by the aural element in the constitution of this character—‘tone’ yin, over the ‘heartmind’ xin.” Jerry may object to this etymologically-based understanding of yi, but I elsewhere noted that this same kind of analysis was used by a native Chinese thinker: “[Cheng] Yichuan says that ‘intention’ (yi) is a combination of ‘mind’ (xin) and ‘sound’ (yin). It is like striking a drum. The sound is not separate from the drum; it comes out from the drum. Intention is not separate from the mind; it is an emission of the mind.”
—A.C. Graham, _Two Chinese Philosophers: Ch’eng Ming-tao and Ch’eng Yi-ch’uan_ (London, Lund Humphries, 1958, p. 63)

That seems to be an effective metaphor for empathic projection.

I’m just thinking out loud (silently).

--Louis
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Postby Louis Swaim » Fri Sep 15, 2006 5:52 pm

Greetings tcc student,

Regarding Kumar Frantzis account of his meeting with Yang Shouzhong, I have experienced similar feelings of being “frozen” or immobilized by a high-level master. It is an uncanny experience, but I think it is explainable as taijiquan skill. Yang Zhenji also has an account in his book where he immobilized a Japanese visitor in an impromptu push hands exchange.

Take care,
Louis
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Postby tccstudent_usa » Fri Sep 15, 2006 6:00 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Louis Swaim:
<B>Greetings tcc student,

Regarding Kumar Frantzis account of his meeting with Yang Shouzhong, I have experienced similar feelings of being “frozen” or immobilized by a high-level master. It is an uncanny experience, but I think it is explainable as taijiquan skill. Yang Zhenji also has an account in his book where he immobilized a Japanese visitor in an impromptu push hands exchange.

Take care,
Louis</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, I do believe that is the skill of TCC. As well as the part about bouncing people up and down like basketballs with the palm of his hand. I have seen this in person as well.



[This message has been edited by tccstudent_usa (edited 09-15-2006).]
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Postby JerryKarin » Fri Sep 15, 2006 6:30 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Louis Swaim:
<B>Greetings,

Another thing I would like to say about “yi” is that we commonly speak of intentionality in terms of “visualization.” To do so is to use a metaphor. The metaphor is grounded in seeing and sight, but that may be a limiting way of thinking about, expressing, or understanding yi. The Geaney analysis of yi that I referenced in the Conscious Movement thread (1st page) addressed this, where she states that “translating yi as ‘representation’ or ‘idea’ is misleading, because of the visual connotation of these terms in much of the Western philosophical tradition. Emphasis on the visual is belied by the aural element in the constitution of this character—‘tone’ yin, over the ‘heartmind’ xin.” Jerry may object to this etymologically-based understanding of yi, but I elsewhere noted that this same kind of analysis was used by a native Chinese thinker: “[Cheng] Yichuan says that ‘intention’ (yi) is a combination of ‘mind’ (xin) and ‘sound’ (yin). It is like striking a drum. The sound is not separate from the drum; it comes out from the drum. Intention is not separate from the mind; it is an emission of the mind.”
—A.C. Graham, _Two Chinese Philosophers: Ch’eng Ming-tao and Ch’eng Yi-ch’uan_ (London, Lund Humphries, 1958, p. 63)

That seems to be an effective metaphor for empathic projection.

I’m just thinking out loud (silently).

--Louis</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Heh, heh well I do think that character analysis is complete tosh. Image

I tend to think of yi in this instance as having to do with 'will' and 'wish'. So when we talk about 'intent' we are talking about what I want to do, what I intend to do or happen. This, as Louis was saying above, relates to an interdependence between the physical and mental, so that scientists have found that profound mental changes take place when you curve your mouth in a smile, even though you may not start out happy. It goes both directions: get in the position, something mental happens; get into the right mental intention, something physical happens.
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Postby bamboo leaf » Fri Sep 15, 2006 6:39 pm

(Next time any of y'all are at one of these demonstrations, just ask the Master who is showing this if you can touch his elbow or knee while he does it to someone else.
That's all I'm asking.
IF, and that's a MIGHTY BIG IF believe you me, any one of them will allow that...
You'll feel, rather than not see. Of that I have ZERO doubt.)


Some do.

The teachers that I know of, for the most part wish to remain privet because they understand and know that many would come to disprove, challenge or there would be so many that it would interrupt the practice. A friend once told me, that (it’s the masters world one is entering, he has passed through ours why should he again enter to prove something he knows.) This may be hard to understand for some, but I understand it. And so am very reserved when talking about it or addressing it online.

[This message has been edited by bamboo leaf (edited 09-15-2006).]
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Postby chris » Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:06 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by yslim:
You was absolutely right if you "counted" the breathing and expanding the 'chongding' and the "undetected fullness" is a movement then I will rest my case. Because only the dead Taiji Masters can has no movement ( breathing for one thing)and at time could send many Chinese flying out the door when they see the dead master's spirit (shen?).</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Breathing is movement, intention is movement. Any attempt to deny this must refute not only scattered anecdotal observations, but decades of Western medical science.

-----
Chris
Martial Development
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Postby Louis Swaim » Fri Sep 15, 2006 9:52 pm

Hi Jerry,

Re: “Heh, heh well I do think that character analysis is complete tosh.”

And of course you are probably correct to think that, if your objection is based on grounds that the character for yi was not composed consciously to “spell” the notion of “mind” and “sound” to yield a semantic result. All I am saying is that the Song philosopher Cheng Yi used this breakdown of the character as an elaboration of a concept. The concept is likely rooted in an understanding that is unconscious, cultural, and metaphorical. I think it’s a great metaphor for “intent,” but linguistically it probably belongs to the category of “folk etymology.”

--Louis
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Postby Louis Swaim » Fri Sep 15, 2006 9:54 pm

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tccstudent_usa:
[B] Yes, I do believe that is the skill of TCC. As well as the part about bouncing people up and down like basketballs with the palm of his hand. I have seen this in person as well.

tcc student,

We discussed some similar issues a couple of years ago in the push hands section, in a thread titled 'Draining' energy query. I mentioned the Frantzis encounter with Yang Shouzhong, and I also posted a translation of the Yang Zhenji account I mentioned.
--Louis
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