Occupying the opponent's center

Postby bamboo leaf » Mon Sep 18, 2006 5:13 pm

Hi Bob,

Don’t understand much of your posting or the reasons behind it. All I have said is that for some they don’t care or wish themselves to be public nothing more. I have shared some of my own experiences, and posted clips that seem to be the same type to show what I was posting about.

With caveat, that weather one accepts or not really doesn’t matter to me, i found the question intereseting and decided to share some of my own insights. As yslim pointed out, this is not a debate of any kind. I have nor wish to prove anything to anyone only offer experiences and insights that I have come by over the yrs, that might help the first posters question.

[This message has been edited by bamboo leaf (edited 09-18-2006).]
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Postby JerryKarin » Mon Sep 18, 2006 5:32 pm

Bamboo Leaf - thanks for sharing your experience and knowledge with us. Don't mind Bob, he gets a little aggressive sometimes but his heart is in the right place.
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Postby chris » Mon Sep 18, 2006 7:57 pm

yslim, I am agreeing with you. The point is that a living body is in constant movement, so if you are looking for complete stillness as a prerequisite for [whatever], you are only wasting your time. That is why I mentioned the air gap instead.

Breathing is one form of movement, as is the heartbeat. Both of these actions affect your center of gravity, among other things. Whether or not this fact is of practical use depends firstly on your sensitivity, and secondly on the context and your objective. Kyudo experts find it practical enough; your mileage may vary.

Can a separation of will and meat can be substantiated in the "classics"? Yes, no, maybe so. Those old things can be construed to mean almost anything--particularly if you cannot read Chinese.

Martial Development
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Postby Kalamondin » Tue Sep 19, 2006 4:08 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>
It all takes place in the realm of meat, does it not?

"Mmm, burger..." (Homer Simpson)
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Postby Kalamondin » Tue Sep 19, 2006 4:24 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>
Have you ever try to expanding your chong ding simultanously fong sung and alone with your ego to resist while you in that mess? with only YI of course.

Hi Yslim,

You know, I've been trying to practice this emptiness when walking around at work, or driving (areas where my ego is likely to rear its ugly head) and am having some interesting results. I often seem to draw tail-gaters (people who follow your car too closely), I think because I sometimes don't "take up enough space" on the road. When I get angry at them, I have a more tense driving experience and am more distracted, but it doesn't really do any good to make them move away.

Recently on a drive to another city, I relaxed used my yi to maintain a strong root and used that connection to ground to fuel a strong perimeter so that none would follow too close or nor would SUV drivers cut me off in front. I experienced it as expanding outward from center. Wonderfully, it worked!

Regards, Kal

[This message has been edited by Kalamondin (edited 09-19-2006).]
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Postby Kalamondin » Tue Sep 19, 2006 4:43 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>
[Lakoff] notes that empathic projection enables experiences that one could call transcendent—experiences of being out of one’s body, or of being in the body of someone else, for example. However, the more that one understands the phenomenon of empathic projection, the more one understands that it is entirely rooted in somatic reality. Empathic projection is a function of immanence rather than transcendence. It is the way that we participate in the environment, and it takes place in our living tissues. That's my current experience.


Hi Louis,

Thanks for elaborating. OK, I buy that. All of human experience must by necessity be filtered through the senses which are themselves rooted in, well, meat. I am suspicious of those who favor transcendance over immanence--I always feel like they've left something out. The body has a very distinct contribution to the experience of life. On the other hand, I think those who focus solely on that immanence and physical reality are also missing half the picture. Balance, equilibrium, up and down, transcendant and immanent, eh?

Regards, Kal
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Postby Louis Swaim » Tue Sep 19, 2006 4:49 am

Greetings All,

There have been some good posts here, and some that frankly I don’t quite follow. I want to add, though, that in remarks I made my objective was not to challenge anyone’s experiences, or the remarkable skills they may have observed. I agree that some caution is warranted, and especially with regard to what kind of conclusions can be drawn about those experiences, or with what kind of assumptions are being made in trying to explain them. Scientists like to say, quoting Hume, I think, that “correlation does not imply causation.” Even in cases where X appears to be the cause of Y, the cause may not be what one thinks or feels it is. Sometimes events are the result of complex interactions, but appear on the surface to be a situation where X “caused” Y to occur. For me, it isn’t useful to just say it can’t be explained, or that science does not recognize something so therefore science does not apply. Science is just a method for testing knowledge.

I’m working on translating a section from an interview of Wu Tunan, in which he describes “ling kong” as a realm of higher-level skill in taijiquan. It may be of interest to some folks here. I’ll try to post it in the next few days.

Take care,
Louis Swaim
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Postby Louis Swaim » Tue Sep 19, 2006 4:57 am

Greetings Kal,

You're welcome!

Re: "On the other hand, I think those who focus solely on that immanence and physical reality are also missing half the picture."

You may have a point. On the other hand. . . Oh wait, I've only got two. Did you ever see the film "Wings of Desire?" I'm just savoring the fact that I can rub my two hands together!

Take care,
Louis Swaim
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Postby Kalamondin » Tue Sep 19, 2006 5:15 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B> Kal: I usually perceive in people an intent to move before they do so. Sometimes I experience it as a wave of energy that washes through me (huh!) a split second before they change course and launch an attack. Part of why I'm so appalled at not being able to counter this new Yi to Yi business is that I'm used to "reading" a little bit in advance of what happens physically and now my safety zone of that split second is gone.

If we are speaking precisely, I think I look at this a little differently. I do not try to predict or anticipate movement or even try to get better at movement. I try to understand what my partner can do in the present. This is what I understand to be “dong jin.” If I can do this across time, I do not care what he or she plans to do, since I will always be in a position to counter and use his or her force. I can always use where I am in order to separate full and empty to my advantage. This is part of the meaning I find in “Seek stillness in movement.”

The minute I try to predict or anticipate, I am restricted to something that may or not be real and so cannot have an empty spirit (xu ling) leading my power (xu ling ding jin). When I have pushed with people I believe to be high-level, this is also what I feel is done to me. I do not feel an anticipation of my movement, but rather an intimate knowledge of my strengths and weaknesses in the ever-changing present and a control of a fulcrum to exploit these. The minute I over- or under-extend, I feel the fulcrum swing into action and cause me to be unable to change any further. I get pushed out by my futile attempts to regain control.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Audi,

Sorry, I didn't explain that well. When I'm listening to the "advance wave" I don't feel like I'm anticipating what the opponent is going to do, so much as listening to and sticking to the wave of intention that emmanates from them.

If I've understood earlier posts correctly, because most people are unable to unify jing-qi-shen, there is a separation between their intent and their energy that manifests as a kind of lag-time in their physical muscle movement. When I push with MYJ I feel quite clearly that he is very present and operating "in the now." Moreover, it's very hard for me to sense any discrepancy in him between what he intends to do and what he is doing. He feels utterly solid and connected until I am flying out and have the retrospective feeling that he must have snuck up on me when really he was there all along.

So with people who are not so advanced there is not only a longer gap between what they emmanate as yi (the noise their being makes?) but also the volume. They are much "louder" and easier to "hear" than my teacher.

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Postby Kalamondin » Tue Sep 19, 2006 5:39 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>
Did you ever see the film "Wings of Desire?" I'm just savoring the fact that I can rub my two hands together!

Yah, great flick!
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Postby Yuri Snisarenko » Tue Sep 19, 2006 5:43 am


Found out master Wang's quotation

[This message has been edited by Yuri Snisarenko (edited 09-20-2006).]
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Postby yslim » Tue Sep 19, 2006 7:20 am

Hi Bob,
the following quote you post,I believe was posted by Bamboo just to let us know by way of your other post. That there was and still is such a custom among some of those old timers held a very high skill. they would from time to time play it with each other in their golden year, as the west would said 'don't use it will loose it'And of course there are loner as we grow older like the quietest side of life. Their high skill will just died with them, There always will be ' a sorrow' and a 'who care' in this world if such skill was exinct, as the modern folks slowly will lost something call "penmanship". If a person like you have no understand the "chi should be sink, any where BUT UP" that want prove of their skill. They will give you the atmost politeness shaking kungfu salute simultaneous none stop telling you they don't know nothing about kungfu, IT IS JUST OLD MAN'S PLAY. I would not advise you to piss them off for prove unless your medical insurance is up-to-date. They will demand your respect more than your money if you 'touch' them. In their eye that would be a most disrespect manner call for teach a lesson to those come from The land of 'questioning the authority'.they are a different breed. They have trained something higher than their taiji kungfu you can never learn, but they will keep on smile at you because you are a "Lao Fan" (the one uncivilized)and wish you don't go away mad but just go away. That something is call I believe "Wu de". Don't worry about it I don't have it either. That is kind of masters Bamboo was talking about
You will not find them because You won't missing them. this is my logic not my attitute. How can one find something that did not missed.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Bob Ashmore:
<B>In response to:
"to remain privet because they understand and know that many would come to disprove, challenge or there would be so many that it would interrupt the practice. A friend once told me, that (it’s the masters world one is entering, he has passed through ours why should he again enter to prove something he knows.) This may be hard to understand for some, but I understand it. And so am very reserved when talking about it or addressing it online."

All I can say is that I've heard some wild excuses for not being willing to prove an ability you claim to have and are demonstrating in public, but this one is rich.
In a nutshell what this type of statement says is: "Just believe me for I have greater knowledge than you and so should not have to prove anything to you lesser beings.
Well, I was born and raised in a society that learns to question authority, and most especially to question any authority that won't back itself up with proof of its ability to be an authority, so I'm not buying this for one minute.
And here's why.....

Hi Bob:

This part of your following quote is correct
Just to be fairness. This kind of master is the other breed that exsit more than the one Bamboo had shown us. even in breeds, there will be a yi and yang.
I hear this story from my workshop class mates about my current Teacher Master Xu. They all were in a demostation as spectators and a kungfu master was big mouthing his skill and masterXu could see
with his kungfu eye that master was full of xxxx. So Master Xu wanted to be a volunteer
to see how good he is. The master told him
he could get hurt and even kill! Master Xu said to him "that will make my wife very happy" as he was coming down the stairs to meet that master,that draw a lot laughters and that master withdrawed himself. If one has a good kungfu eye and skill one can be a volunteer and unmask the good and the bad. That bring back a Western said " may you have the serenity to accept the thing you can not change, the courage to change the thing that you can, AND THE WIDOM TO KNOW THE DIFFERENT"

Quote by Bob
"If you're a "Master" and you are showing a group of folks a skill you claim to have, then you should be able to prove you have it in any way that is required. Asking someone to do that is NOT demeaning to his skill, it is simply asking that his skill be proven with no further reason to question it. In fact, someone who is not willing to prove their skill beyond a doubt really shouldn't be showing it in public and they most certainly should not be teaching it, now should they? Further, any student who DOESN'T ask his Master to prove his abilities is just the type this kind of Master is looking for...
Well, 'nuff said there...
As for taking up all of his time to do so...
Ummmmmmmmmmmmm..........? Huh?
I don't see how holding onto his shoulder, elbow, hips or knees as he attempts to do what he claims he can do would slow him down much, if at all, in this demonstration. He's showing it any way, so how's this slowing him down so much?
Also, I sincerely, highly doubt that there are just SO many doubters out there that would want to get in his way, slow him down and piss him off by asking for proof of his claims that he couldn't oblige the few and give incontrevertible proof of his Mastery of his claimed skills. You would think that he would WANT to prove beyond a shadow of anyones doubt what a wonderful, powerful, all knowing Master he is...
So I guess I'm just one of those who don't get this arguement and never will.

Where I come from we have an expression that I can't help but think of when I see or hear of this kind of argument being used to stop you from having to prove something you claim you can do.
It is blunt and to the point. I want to, up front, warn you all that will seem highly offensive, so please only read it if you have the type of sensitivity that will allow you to do so without taking personal offense, as it is not meant to offend but rather illustrate my point:
That expression is..................
DON'T READ THIS IF YOU'RE GOING TO TAKE OFFENSE (last warning for the weak hearted)

Hi Bob,

Your following quote bring back my past-life events I almost forgot..

Are you that Pope in this questioning authority group when this poor guy, (forgot his name that was more than 500 years ago, and please excuse my another Senior Moment,) told you the earth is round? and you put him through Hell for that by not believe in him. Because what you trying to tell those good souls in this BB their clips of those Taiji masters high skill exsit reminding me that you now group acting like all these 500 years of Popes believe the same until I was stuns to read on news paper it took Pope John the second in 21st centruy to "Forgive" this poor soul sin by telling as he the earth was and still is.

"Either put up, or shut up.

What can I say? We're a blunt spoken, authority questioning group where I'm from.
Again, sorry if that caused any offense as it was not meant in that fashion.
If you have read the expression despite my warnings and are now angry with me...
All I have to say is, next time when someone warns you not to read something if you're going to take exception to it there's a simple solution.
Don't read it.

Bob </B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Bob,

I yield your advise of your warning to read your wonderful statement that reflect your charecter so well with my own risk.With my try-to-be open mind I read it as a no-brainer statement as it was came from the stuck-chi in your chest. I believe you was the one who believe such thing 'to hollow the chest sink the chi',whether you want to believe it or not.. that could calm one's mind. This essentialit work well in the class-room sitting as well in daily life sitting IFYOU want to apply it of course.When the mind is in stillness then the wisdom shall 'gudong' and it can express through your hand transmit it to the computer. What I read in your writing was amazing that came from a taiji person that practice The Ten Essentials! you had proven the result well in YOUR OWN interpretation.But Master Yang Jun showed us so much differently when I was in Oregan workshop couple of months ago just to meet him,for his insights and his principle in
No Bob I can't speak for other but I can't mad at some one who could write so amusing.
Why I read your post? because it was there. Besides,IF I don't read your then I don't have any thing to tell me how good the other is.

There is some one else out there is as funny as you are when come to the claim and prove..we call him Bumblebee,or could be her but we are not talking about sex here even though sex sell. I have no yi to sell you any prove.He did not claim he can fly and he just fly But the Western Scientist had proven it can not (suppose to)fly! they should be extinct! Can any one believe that!
I was also told and lead to believe we have no brian, that lead me to think our knowledge is a bag of tricks store in our upper dantien because the Western Medical Science can't prove it how the whole brian work the way it does.In your 'questioning the authority' opinion is this mean the brian of our is not exist. BUT I am here using that small part of brian is working to tpye this post as you can see. Then why is so hard for those see the 'empty force at work', base on the same Western science'understanding ' of their finding can't prove one way or other how and why the brian work the same way to the 'empty force 'does. But it work. Why can't we be happy with these as a child like as the Taiji Clasic stated. And just enjoy the 'magic TRICKS' OF life?That lead me to believe maybe this is the safe-guard of our creator to tell the scientist 'off limit'to tamper the Heaven's will. So BE HAPPY AND PRACTICE TAIJI. And what is...

Tell us some of your good Taiji skill which is hard to come by... Go ahead and make our day.

Ciao with more fong sung
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Postby Bob Ashmore » Tue Sep 19, 2006 9:01 pm

Thanks! That's the nicest thing anyone's said about me in quite some time.

The only Tai Chi Chuan skill I have figured out that takes a long time do is standing with my knees pointing in line with my toes.
I've been working on that for about twenty years now and I'm quite proud of it.
That's all I've got. The rest of my TCC skills would stink on ice.
I'm like Yang Cheng Fu that way, "I'm not good yet, I need more practice", and I know it beyond a doubt.
The difference between me and the folks who make these types of claims is quite simply this:
If I make a claim to possess mastery of a skill, I'm prepared to back it up with proof that I have that skill.
So now I've said that I can keep my knees in line with my toes and I'll be willing to stand there and let any one of you hold my knees and toes to see if they're in line, any day of the week, just as often as you'd like. Now that I've made that claim I want any one of you to be certain in your own mind that I'm not faking it and only pretending to have my knees in line with my toes.
Your turn.

Look, people...
What I'm saying is really quite simple and I honestly don't understand why there's such a problem with it. Whether it's old chinese TCC Masters or young inner city Detroit gang youths, this philosophy of mine applies to anyone claiming to be able to do what is normally considered impossible. I don't discriminate, I apply this to anyone.
If you're making wild claims that people are going to have a hard time believing, and most especially if you want ME to believe them, than you'd best be willing to back them up with solid evidence.
Or more simply:
Either come prepared to prove your claims, or don't make them at all.
AND don't get yourself all twisted up in a knot when I ask you to prove them. YOU made the claims, all I want now is some verification.
Since I've been there and done that with this type of claim, and not gotten any verification but in fact quite the opposite, you'll just have to forgive me for not buying it at this time.
If you can find me one of these Masters who would be willing to let me and a few others hold onto various points in their body while they excercise this claimed skill, and they go on to prove the point by doing just what they said they can do, then and only then am I going to change my mind.
Maybe I ran into Masters who claim this skill and don't really have it. Maybe it is real.
But so far, nada.

As to coveting this type of Jade:
I've been to the mountings, I've looked at the Jade there and despite all the hype it turned out to be green tinted glass.
Now, that doesn't necessarily mean that there isn't Jade in them there mountings, it just means that all the Jade lying around the day I was there was fake.
Maybe somewhere in the world there's a mounting full of real Jade, but no one's shown it to me yet so you'll have to forgive me for being cynical.
All I can say after my trip is that all I've seen so far is green tinted glass and no Jade.
Since I find it difficult to get fired up by green tinted glass, I don't covet the so called Jade very much.

All that said, you guys rock on. Have a ball. Throw each other with your chi/jing/yi without moving. Don't let me stop you.
Stop on by some time, I'm in KY now. I'm easy to find, I'm with the Louisville Yang Chang Fu Center, they know how to find me. We'll practice a bit, we'll have some laughs, go out to dinner, have a couple of bourbons (I live where bourbon is born and raised), then you guys can show me this skill.
I'm really quite open minded. Just prove it to me and I'll believe.
That's an honest invite. Come on by any time. Just call ahead, we need to straighten up before we have company...


[This message has been edited by Bob Ashmore (edited 09-19-2006).]
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Postby Anderzander » Tue Sep 19, 2006 9:13 pm


can you keep your knees in line with your toes if someone is trying to stop you?


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Postby Bob Ashmore » Tue Sep 19, 2006 9:28 pm

Depends on who it is that is doing the trying.
Bill W., nope. Carl Meeks, nope. Han Hoon Wong, no chance. Yang Jun, not in this lifetime. Yang Zhen Duo, not in this millenium.
But most ordinary folks, more than likely.

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