is this even possible??

[aikido-jo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGHnusy2n38

is there anybody out there who has ever been on the receiving end of something like this???

[aikido-jo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPAmScOHCYQ&mode=related&search=

AND THIS???!!!!!

[shugdenla]

A great show!

The sadness is that it works only if you believe! No doubt cooperation is excellent but in the greater scheme of things, the situation one encounters in life is not even close so it has an awe of not being realistic. If you believe you can learn it, then it can be seen as realistic. If you find someone to teach it, then even better.

[bamboo leaf]

(The sadness is that it works only if you believe!)

you have felt this or experienced it? If not how can your statement be true?

if one post something that from the outset deems it impossible, there is little point in asking others weather it is. For those that have experienced probably few in number it will be, there will be many more who have not, probably a larger number for which it will not.

the better question and probbly more informitive would be to ask how its done or how could it be done for those who feel such things are not possible.
If one can master the basics, just the basics many such demos will be understandably.



[This message has been edited by bamboo leaf (edited 10-10-2006).]

[Bob Ashmore]

If someone sells you a diamond watch for a dime, it's a good bet you have purchased a watch that's not even worth a nickel.

Bob

[DPasek]

The problem with viewing demonstrations such as shown in these video clips is that anyone wishing to fake it with their friends could reproduce something similar looking. Thus it may seem fraudulent to individuals that have not directly experienced something similar.

It reminds me of the situation with acupuncture in the past. Traditional Chinese medicine was not given much credence in the USA until a diplomat visiting China had a surgical operation where only acupuncture anesthesia was successfully used (if I have the story correct). Now, even though it is still not well understood in the West, at least it is being studied, and TCM has gained at least the status of “complementary medicine.”

I don’t know if these clips show demonstrations of fraudulent abilities. My knowledge is insufficient to judge. What I would like to see is a demonstration of these abilities against a non-human animal in order to lessen the idea that the recipient must “believe in it” in order for it to work on them. Acupuncture has been shown to work on animals, so if the sort of ability demonstrated in the film clips is based on TCM/Qi/etc, then I don’t see why it could not also be demonstrated on animals. It may require a breed of animal “sensitive to Qi” for this to work, but I would be more skeptical of this ability if it were claimed that it only works on humans. I do not have experience using TCM on animals, but it seems like someone should be able to list those breeds that have had high rates of success using TCM treatments. Aren’t dogs supposed to have high inherent levels of Qi, and haven’t they been treated successfully with TCM? Perhaps these abilities could be demonstrated on dogs, or perhaps some less easily trainable species.

DP

[tai1chi]

"The problem with viewing demonstrations such as shown in these video clips is that anyone wishing to fake it with their friends could reproduce something similar looking."

That's exactly right. There's no "falsifiability." All such demonstrations are deemed either f/actual or fraudulent. They do not "prove" anything, either way, regardless of the observer.

The way to approach that problem would be to show a "real" demonstration and compare it to one that was "fake." Explaining the differences and how they could be spotted would be helpful, especially to those who wised to understand/believe.

Without doubt, demonstrations such as these do not disprove anything. However, a disproof does not constitute a corresponding proof of anything. Demonstrating "how" something might be disproved, however, does constitute a "rtd" (reason to doubt).

Some would argue that that would be stronger than any appeal to experience. I.e., no matter what anyone has experienced, if it can be shown how that experience could be faked or the experiencer fooled, that is a reason to disbelieve.

DP suggested that a student could do X on his own to make Y occur. The only question is whether that would be possible, not DP's experience. I.e., are there examples available of students faking it? Or, would it be possible for students to fake it? --even if it could actually occur.

Well, in brief, how does one tell the difference between reality and illusion? What did Franklin say? “Believe none of what you hear and half of what you see.”

Let me add, though, the most ardent skeptics are also those who'd like to believe.

cheers,
Steve J

[bamboo leaf]

So what is not possible?

Do some reading on wave interactions and wave dynamics, this should provide a sense of what must happen for this to be possible.



[This message has been edited by bamboo leaf (edited 10-10-2006).]

[tai1chi]

What is not possible?
That can't possibly be a serious question. How can I answer that negative? How can anyone?

But, as DP suggested, it is "possible" that some of the demonstrations that we've seen have been faked. Or, are you saying that that would not be possible?

Well, I don't have the time to look into a science book in order to find an explanation for a phenomenon that you could probably explain much more easily. I'm sure that none of the old masters went to a library to find discover these things.

Maybe you could look up falsifiability.

regards,
Steve James

[bamboo leaf]

(But, as DP suggested, it is "possible" that some of the demonstrations that we've seen have been faked. Or, are you saying that that would not be possible?)

I don’t know what the point of faking some thing would be, all demos are kind of set up to demo a certain point or idea. What I asked is why would one think its not possible not weather it was faked or not.

Look at some of the movements shown, what is really happing? What I see is someone who has really good ting jin, able to sense the point, time and direction of the others intent to issue and issuing before them. The other is not able to change and so is carried by his own intent the strong intent of the other. In each case the other is either trying to issue or finding that he has encountered emptiness is trying to escape. Mr Ho is simply following this out. The other demo where he is surrounded, first he has to empty very fast, then he follows the others out they react to his emptiness. Think of a balloon that is suddenly deflated and inflated again following the others out. A basic idea would be to tell some one to push against your arm, if you can tell when they are about to push you should be able to feel at what point their qi has arrived, shoulder, elbow, wrist. At the shoulder or elbow you can send them back very easily they will not be able to change in response to your issue. If it has reached the wrist or hand it’s a little hard, you can empty before it gets there and then follow as they leave.

Most would call this withdraw and push, fist learn to do it with the body then later one will be able to sense the mind, and use this method.

the old masters you mentioned probbly did not ask what was or not, they found out by direct exprience.

[tai1chi]

Hi bamboo leaf,

you wrote:

"I don’t know what the point of faking some thing would be,"

The point of faking is to fake. But, I don't necessarily think that these are "faked" in the sense of "pretending."

"... all demos are kind of set up to demo a certain point or idea. What I asked is why would one think its not possible not weather it was faked or not."

Well, you held that DP's point was unsound because he never had the experience. My point was that you hadn't addressed his point. If you argue that it isn't possible to fake it, then I disagree. If you argue that it wasn't faked, then I really don't have an opinion. I really don't know.

I do think that the reactions might be the result of many things, including simple suggestion and/or desire to please. They might be genuine reactions. I do not "believe" that there is some sort of manipulation of an extraordinary energy. There's energy involved, to be sure, but it's ordinary.

Now, who generates that energy is another matter. It's undeniably real: i.e., not a camera trick.

regards,
Steve James

[bamboo leaf]

My only point is that unless one wrote from experience how would one address it. to say that either the people are faking, induced or what ever, how does one make such statements with out the experience. Not just here but on many boards it’s the same. I never really understand this. I write from experience. What I see on this and on other videos that I comment on accord with things I have felt directly.
So far away from the question.

Yes I have experienced things like what is shown, yes it is possible

(Well, you held that DP's point was unsound because he never had the experience. My point was that you hadn't addressed his point.)_

I didn't say that his point was unsound just asked what was his basis for makeing it.

[This message has been edited by bamboo leaf (edited 10-10-2006).]

[aikido-jo]

bamboo leaf:

thankyou for your responses. I have read a few threads now where you have made a contributtion, and although I sometimes find them quite confusing - whether it is down to my admitted inexperience, or just because I was never any good at cryptic crosswords! - they always seem to say what I need to know. However, one thing I have noticed is you tend to try and destroy the question before you provide the answer:

(if one post something that from the outset deems it impossible, there is little point in asking others weather it is)

Again, I am trying to post threads as a begginner - which i am - that could possibly be helpful to other beginners. I am trying to blaitently post blunt questions to try and seperate all the fact from myth, and point out the things that I find both mystical and fascinating about tai chi, and i'm sure other beginners will find the same.

Any way, at least you finally answered my question in the end!:

(Yes I have experienced things like what is shown, yes it is possible )

Many thanks, I'm loving how this thread is going!

[aikido-jo]

another thing, bamboo leaf (and I mean this with the utmost respect) is I would be very interested to read about yourself, if you have a myspace or something similar, or let me know what school you come from etc.. as you seem very knowlegable and seem to have always been in the right place in terms of good teaching and experiences.

I am in the process of trying to find a good teacher myself, and finding it a great struggle. I am only young (25) and have just bought a house with my girlfriend, and so can't really afford to travel to find the best teachers, so I was wondering how you have managed to get the experience you have.

[tai1chi]

Hi bamboo leaf,

sorry, it was my error. You were responding to shugdenla, who wrote:

"(The sadness is that it works only if you believe!)"

To which, you responded:

"you have felt this or experienced it? If not how can your statement be true?"

My point was that his statement could indeed be true.

DP added

"The problem with viewing demonstrations such as shown in these video clips is that anyone wishing to fake it with their friends could reproduce something similar looking. Thus it may seem fraudulent to individuals that have not directly experienced something similar."

That's where I brought up the idea of falsifiability. And, my point was that such demonstrations did not prove anything for that reason.

As for experience, I am sure that many people can say that they have experienced unusual feelings or have been felt manipulated by their teacher or a master. However, that does not mean that they would feel the same thing or react the same as anyone else.

For example, have you ever experienced someone making you do back flips or jumping up in the air and spinning around? Just saying "It's possible" isn't enough. If you have not experienced it, how can you say that it is possible?

regards,
Steve J