is this even possible??

[Bob Ashmore]

These guys getting thrown around without ever being touched need to learn to lift one big toe on one foot and drop the big toe on the other foot at the same time, repeatedly, in sequence.
Then this couldn't happen to them.
I get that right off the Discovery Channel, from a guy who claims to be able to do this kind of thing...
Except it doesn't work very well on cameramen. Or guys who know how to lift one toe and drop the other.
Or on Manitoba Day. Doesn't work then either, but that's just my take on it and I could be wrong about the day, it might be New Foundland Day, so don't quote me on that part.

Aikido-jo,
Take anything like this with a grain or two of salt. Big grains.
I'm not going to say that it can't be done, because I don't know everything in this wide world and would never claim to.
What I do know is that none of these guys seems to be able to stand the test of reality. Every time I've seen something like this challanged, it fails the test.

I've said it before, I'll say it until I'm blue in the face:
Anyone who can do this, come on down to my place and prove it by doing it to me.
Until someone does, as others so rightly point out, it's only a good trick for the vidoes and no one can take it seriously.
I've never had a taker on that. Somehow these magicians have excuse after excuse as to how they can't do it when you ask them to show you how it's done, or prove that it can really be done.
They talk about the sunspot chakras not being aligned properly that day, or that the levitational probabilities are low on Manitoba Day, or some other load of New Age rhetoric, but they never seem to be able to come on over in broad daylight in front of witnesses who are skeptical and analytical. When you ask them to, they start immeidately to claim they can't do it because of some esoteric reason no one else can fathom and suddenly they disapear like smoke on the wind leaving behind only a trail of excuses.
They always have really, really good excuses. At least they make sense to them, anyway.
Or they start saying things like, "I've already been through the gate, why do I have to prove myself to you? You should just believe me because I said so."
Uh-huh. Right, we'll just take your word for that, mate. No problem.
That kind of behavior makes me believe this kind of demonstration is nothing more than another dime watch.
Diamond watches cost more than a dime where I come from and people don't get thrown around without anyone touching them. If you believe otherwise, then prove to me that these watches are really made of diamonds.
Once you ask them taht, the ball is then in their court. They never seem to pick it up, though.

Hey, I got watefront property for sale! Don't mind the alligators, snakes and mud, they'll be draining it real soon. It's a real steal.... Ahem, I mean deal, that's it, deal.
Any takers?
We'll go out to dinner to seal the deal, with my wife, Morgan Fairchild!

We've had this discussion before. All I know at this point is that opinions vary. This is mine. Believe what you will.

Bob

[JerryKarin]

My suggestion: maintain a healthy skepticism while keeping an open mind.

[shugdenla]

bamboo,

I have seen many demonstrations of that sort and they all work on the associates or students of the one doing the great deed. So I am in full agreement with the cooperative aspect because it is a good show. The reality is that is is rarely reproducible hence the state of tai chi today. I welcome with open arms any group of individuals who have learnt that skill from the teacher(s) and reproduce that scenario.

Please do no think because I do not believe in the extent of those acts that you should do the same. You must seek the truth at all costs. I am communicating with a computer, there is no physical persona so let us all be free to pursue our goals.

DPasek,
Even sham acupuncture has been known to work and I am not saying acupuncture is a sham!

[bamboo leaf]

Its good to have skepticism, but also to remain open. I think anyone of you could do some of what is shown and more depending on experience and training level.
Sometimes its hard to see how or why something is happening if one only focuses on the what is happening.

look again at some of what is happening and think of a child on a swing with you being the one pushing it.

Bob, mmm never really know what to make of your posts. Always about proving something. In my experiences most teachers that I have met are very willing to let others who are sincerely on the path to feel their art. No they do not care to be a sideshow show or be tested or analyzed or what ever. Its their world you/we, are the one who are entering not the other way around they really dont care. people seek out masters they do not seek out people. only my opinion of the people I have met. There are some as Mr. Ho, in this clip who are out in public and others using the same type of skill sets to either make a statement or advertise their methods.

My history is really unimportant but it does span some 3 decades of practice with different teachers following something I have felt inside. This lead me to my present and last teacher. At times I have had to rethink, regroup and change in the face of being shown that clearly my ideas or methods where not quite right. a case in point was what is it to be sung or (relaxed/loose) until one comes up on some one that is, its really pertty hard to understand or imagine.

At one point I asked a teacher when would I know if what I was doing was right or not. I still remember his answer. (after many yrs of practice you will know) I laughed at the time, coming from an elderly Chinese man it sounded like something from a movie. At this time I realize that he was quite right.

Meaning there are many paths, each right in accordance with your needs and wants. But if one is asking about what is shown in the clips then its different, with few paths leading to this way. IMO. The first and hardest thing to do is really give up the use of force followed by understanding what sung means and is. Just some of my own findings.

[bamboo leaf]

(So I am in full agreement with the cooperative aspect because it is a good show.)

if taiji is never against another what would not be cooperative? How could it be uncooperative or resisting. The dynamic of taiji is that it needs another to react with, something to join with.

[tai1chi]

ignore please

[This message has been edited by tai1chi (edited 10-11-2006).]

[twc]

Hi all,

Recent studies on chi indicated that it is a form of energy field. Just like, say, magnetic field. If we can repel two magnets with like-poles facing each other, I don't see why we can't repel "giant magnets" like a person by means of mastery of chi. I understand that the prerequisite to such acts is that the receiving party has to have enough chi for the performer to repel.

Though some will ask if this is reasonable: one can only perform lingkongjing on another party who has chi? Well again it only makes sense. A person skilled in chi is more sensitive to slight changes in chi or his energy field. As such he is also more likely to be affected by his chi. So if I can manipulate his chi from my end, he can be defeated.

If lingkongjing is "useless" against opponents who are not skilled in chi, then what good is it in actual combat? Well, in order to reach the level of mastery of lingkongjing, one has to totally master his chi, and before he can master his chi, he has to totally master his jing, and before he can master his jing, he has to totally master his basic taiji forms (or zhao). So even if a lowly beginner like myself, who has yet to be skilled in the mastery of chi, chooses to have a go at someone like Sim Pooh Ho, I will defintely stand no chance, since he doesn't even have to apply lingkongjing to knock me off my feet..... Well we don't use a gun to shoot those houseflies, do we? A simple flyswap will suffice.

Wu Tunan, in his dying days, said that he had only master fifty percent of what he thought can be achieved in Taiji. And this old man had lived to the ripe old age of 105, and he had started learning martial arts when he is less than ten year old. Nearly a hundred years of study in martial arts. What can be achieved through the study of martial arts is still unknown. I tend to agree with some writers that ultimately we are training our conscious minds to achieve clarity. Prsent day science can only understood less than fifty percent of what our brain is about, even less if we are talking about what our mind can do.

This world is a very big place. If what we have today is the penultimate of what we can achieve, then this world is a very big boring place.

I like what was said in the earlier posts: "maintain a healthy skepticism while keeping an open mind".

Just my thoughts in the wee hours of the day. Meanwhile another video link on Wu Tunan and other grandmasters.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=RpSwhc9UBjc

cheers,
twc

[Audi]

Greetings all,

This demonstration reminds me of ones where karate pracitioners break amazing stacks of bricks with their hands, feet, and heads. Just as with those demonstrations, opinions can differ as to how relevant such skills are for the core of the art people wish to study.

Opinions can also differ as to the appropriateness of certain performance-enhancing aspects of the set-up. Skill, showmanship, and relevance to your goal are different parameters. They are not necessarily mutually exclusive; however, they are not necessariy mutually supportive either.

I believe I have encountered skills that are like what the video shows; however what was shown to me, or rather on me, I would still call "ordinary energy." It was definitely peripheral to the overall experience of being tossed about and absolutely not the most interesting part.

For me, the most interesting part of the video was the counterattack to the single push. To me, this showed the most interesting skill; and yet, it is still not the main type of skill I aim for.

At present, what interests me most is the exchange and flow of energy based in physical things, like sparrows in your palm. To me, the demonstration seemed focused on other things. The literature does indeed make scattered references to "psychological" skills of certain Yang family members and occasionally imply paranormal explanations; however, those references do not seem central to any of their writings, the classics they point to, or to the personal encounters related to me.

Take care,
Audi

[aikido-jo]

thank you all

I have learned a lot from this thread

[Bob Ashmore]

BL,
I am all about proof. You're quite correct on that score.
Why? Because I am. That's the only reason.
I don't see me changing on that anytime soon.
It's a system that has served me well so far. I've bought precious few dime watches in my day.

Bob

[Anderzander]

I think the best advice here is to keep an open mind.

Skeptisism though can perhaps be a barrier to the mind being open

On the subject of proof ....

I've seen people have points pressed on them and then whilst they convulse wildly they say "pressure points don't affect me"

I've also seen people hypontised so they can't physically move and say "I'm not hypnotised you know, its just that I can't move anything but my eyes"

I've also seen outlandish things happen and the person totally blank it.

Sometimes there is a great deal of inertia in people's mindsets.

[Bob Ashmore]

Please don't confuse a closed mind with a healthy reality check.
They are entirely different things.

Bob

[Louis Swaim]

Greetings Anderzander,

Re: "Skeptisism though can perhaps be a barrier to the mind being open"

To be accurate, and true to the actual philosophical meaning of the term, skepticism would not be a barrier to an open mind, but precisely the opposite. Skepticism is a suspension (epoché) of judgement about truth. Genuine exercise of skepticism leads to what the Greek skeptics termed "ataraxia" -- "tranquillity, or the freedom from disturbance and pain that characterizes a balanced mind and constitutes its first step toward the achievement of pleasure." Some have compared this with states of mind suggested by Zhuangzi, or by some Buddhists.

Take care,
Louis




[This message has been edited by Louis Swaim (edited 10-12-2006).]

[Anderzander]

Definition corrected then gentlemen!

My point remains though. Not sure what word I want for it though...

What word would be for the state of people whom describe themselves as skeptics but do not have an open mind? not to the point of being myopic but where there is a certain degree of prejudice and presupposition?

[Anderzander]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Bob Ashmore:
<B>Please don't confuse a closed mind with a healthy reality check.
They are entirely different things.

Bob </B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Whose reality is that Bob?



Only messing, by the definition Louis has provided I meant to say be a skeptic! and depending how much you want the mind to open, be skeptical of what reality is too.


edited for apalling spelling

[This message has been edited by Anderzander (edited 10-12-2006).]