Yang Family Tai Chi Discussion Board

by **DPasek** » Mon Oct 09, 2006 6:40 pm

Audi,

I like the idea of looking at the eight jin/energies from the perspective of the individual receiving them. This takes into account the subtle differences in any technique which, while minimally affecting the posture, do change the way the energy is transmitted.

I have posted my views on these eight jin/energies elsewhere on this forum at http://www.yangfamilytaiji.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000043.html (and elsewhere that I did not locate immediately), so I won’t repeat them here. But I would like to express my reservations about viewing them in terms of directions. I feel that they express qualities more than mere directions. While there are clear reasons why they tend to be expressed in certain directions, I don’t think that they are limited to those directions. I feel that they can be applied in almost any direction.

If your understanding of the eight jin/energies does not allow you to apply them against someone attacking you from behind, then I suspect that your definitions are too limiting. Likewise, if you are on the ground rather than on your feet and your understanding/definitions do not allow you to apply all of the eight against an opponent, then you should check your definitions. I feel that the eight jin/energies are comprehensive, so if there are any places in your Taijiquan practice that do not appear to exhibit one of them, then you are probably either doing something counter to Taijiquan theory, or your understanding of the eight jin/energies may be inaccurate or incomplete.

DP

by **Anderzander** » Mon Oct 09, 2006 9:14 pm

Dp

I think you are missing what was said? the direction is the generation of the energy - not its application.

Stephen

by **Audi** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 12:13 am

Hi Stephen,

Could you elaborate on what you mean by "generation of energy"? The classics taught about the energy being generated in the feet, but you appear to be talking about something else.

An example of my confusion is what you say about the downward generation of Lu. In the form that we do, there is indeed a slight downward tendency to the posture of that name; however, in the traditional vertical four-hand exercise, I usually think of Lu starting with an upward motion.

Upon further reflection in the context of the four-hand application, I think of Lu as a circle beginning with a downward enticing motion (Adhering energy (Zhan1) or perhaps Pluck (Cai3)), followed by an upward energy to control (Na2) the opponent's energy, and completed with an outward movement across my body that will tend to flip the opponent (fa1). What exactly are you referring to when you talk about "downard generation of energy"?

Take care,
Audi

by **tai1chi** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 3:13 am

Hi Audi,

if I'm not mistaken, one of the earliest descriptions of the first movement of the GBT was "Ward Off Slantingly Upward." I was also talking with a friend recently and we noted that, though "An" is generally translated as "push", that is actually the second part of the movement. The movement was often called "Withdraw-Push." And, sometimes I think that the "Withdraw" part (i.e., how it's done, not the fact that it goes back) is the "an."

cheers,
Steve

by **JerryKarin** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 4:43 am

It's important to distinguish between the peng energy and the peng move, lu energy and move named lu, etc. Otherwise you are talking about different things.

by **Anderzander** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 7:55 am

Jerry has reiterated my point. I'll post more on it later on today when I have more time.

Stephen

[This message has been edited by Anderzander (edited 10-10-2006).]

by **DPasek** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 2:13 pm

Stephen,

I was not referring to specific applications/postures/moves, and honestly, since I feel that the energies can be expressed throughout, I no longer pay much attention to specific form “postures” in respect to the energies (I view them as simple examples emphasizing one possibility/preference over others). If you stop your form at any point, whether at an ending of a posture or anywhere in transition, can you feel how almost any of the eight energies could be expressed from that posture? The rather large movements of the form tend to enhance certain applications over others, but if you consider the “circles” in the form to be condensed enough that they occur at a single point (the point of contact with an opponent), then many of the other energies will also be available for use.

For the most part I like Audi’s statements in the 10/8/06 post. I feel that they express the potentials for the energies better than most approaches that I have seen. I have more concerns with statements like the two quotes that Audi responded to at the end of his post. While directions may describe tendencies for the energies, my understanding of the energies allows differences to what some may view as definitions if understood primarily as directions of action/expression.

Were you referring to something else in stating “the direction is the generation of the energy - not its application?” If you were referring, for example, to Peng energy being generated from the rebound energy into the feet resulting in that energy moving upwards from the feet through the torso, thus generally being applied upwards, then yes I agree. But because we have a somewhat flexible structure, this upward generated energy could be redirected by our structure to apply that energy horizontally or even angling downward.

If I have misunderstood you, please clarify.

DP

by **Anderzander** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 11:09 pm

Audi, DP

I must admit to suddenly feeling like its a task to be able to gain enough rapport to be clear!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
Could you elaborate on what you mean by "generation of energy"? The classics taught about the energy being generated in the feet, but you appear to be talking about something else.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is what I was describing when I said this:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The basic component of the 8 jin is the use of the rising and falling of energy. When you suspend your crown and sink there is an internal downward movement, when this reaches its maximum there is a return force that rises up through the body.

In large changes the rise and fall is a whole body change - the whole body empties and then fills.......

So when the energy rises and is expressed outwards, perhaps by turning, that is the larger part of Peng. Perhaps the important thing for a beginner is not to be lifted by the energy - when there is an up there is a down etc

When the energy falls or is drawn down, downwards and inwards, that is the greater part of Lu. Using emptiness to meet the opponents fullness. Perhaps the important thing to remain transparent to incoming force is to maintain the crown so that the body stretches rather than compresses. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry to quote myself - but that's what I meant. When I spoke of generating the energy I meant what is done to manifest it. Not how to use it - for that has too many possibilities and seemed to not be the theme of the thread.

An example of my confusion is what you say about the downward generation of Lu. In the form that we do, there is indeed a slight downward tendency to the posture of that name; however, in the traditional vertical four-hand exercise, I usually think of Lu starting with an upward motion.

I think he you are describing an application or a movement - rather than the movement of energy that is termed, in this instance, Lu.

Dp you originally said:

If your understanding of the eight jin/energies does not allow you to apply them against someone attacking you from behind, then I suspect that your definitions are too limiting.

I said I was referring to the generation of the energies not their application.

You've said:

I was not referring to specific applications/postures/moves

then gone on to describe their application:

but if you consider the “circles” in the form to be condensed enough that they occur at a single point (the point of contact with an opponent), then many of the other energies will also be available for use.

For the most part I like Audi’s statements in the 10/8/06 post. I feel that they express the potentials for the energies better than most approaches that I have seen.

This is application or potentials of applications is not what I was describing.

You then said:

If you were referring, for example, to Peng energy being generated from the rebound energy into the feet resulting in that energy moving upwards from the feet through the torso, thus generally being applied upwards, then yes I agree. But because we have a somewhat flexible structure, this upward generated energy could be redirected by our structure to apply that energy horizontally or even angling downward.

That is closer to what I meant yes. Hopefully my response to Audi may have helped.

Can I ask both you and Audi - what do you do to generate movement in taiji?

How do you create your movement?

[This message has been edited by Anderzander (edited 10-10-2006).]

by **DPasek** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 5:00 pm

I suspect you mean to ask where the eight energies we are discussing are generated rather than movement in space (which is more in the realm of the five phases/steps). How one creates movement (generate energy) somewhat depends on whether you are talking about solo forms or interactive work. Let me respond mainly referencing the latter.

If you are interacting in coordination with your partner/opponent, and thus if you are sensing/sticking/reading…, then I feel that you will be moving from the point of contact in coordination with the energies that they are applying to you. Or, perhaps more precisely, you are moving from your awareness of what is happening at the point of contact (i.e., from the mind or “intent”).

The feet/legs/hips/structure… are important for giving a “root” or stable platform for the energies that will be expressed (assuming one is standing – this could change if seated, on the ground, back against a wall, floating in water, etc). But I feel that the actual eight energies are “generated” at the point of contact with the opponent, although they are also coordinated to the center/dantien (as well as to the foundation/support if correctly integrated body structure is maintained). Solo form trains the coordination of all parts of the body in all directions with the center/dantien, how to maintain a stable root or base of support while also being capable of mobilizing your center by shifting and/or stepping, and how to maintain and/or change your structure in order to accomplish the preceding.

I think that the eight energies are all “created” from the energies of the “circle.” Forms tend to use rather large circles for training and understanding purposes, but application of those energies will be quicker the smaller the circle can be condensed. Forms/postures/moves thus tend to have their energies separated into different places due to the larger circles being performed. This is expressed to some extent when people talk about the energies in transition movements being different than the final ending posture. These “transitional” energies can also be applied at the point of contact, and change practically instantaneously at that same point of contact, if the circle is condensed to that single point of contact.

Make sense?
DP

by **DPasek** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 5:29 pm

Perhaps I should have been more precise in my Peng energy example in my 10-10-06 post. The example given is only one example of how I feel that Peng energy can be “generated” (in this case rebounding from the stability of the feet through the legs, into the torso, then into the arms). I feel that Peng can be produced from the springy rebound energy manifested by the relationship of various parts of the body, one being relatively stable such that another part of the body can compress towards it followed by the rebound energy. Thus the rebound could also be produced by the arm’s relationship with the torso, for example, or the leg with the stable foot, or the hand with the stable forearm… (anywhere where there can be a compression followed by a rebound). Thus I do not understand this energy as necessarily being generated upwards through the body. While the example of the rebound starting at the feet is perhaps the most common example, I do not feel that it is exclusive to this energy. While a ball more frequently bounces off of the ground (due to gravity’s contribution) is has the same type of energy (both generation and effect) when bounced off of a wall or off of the ceiling.

I begin to suspect that definitions are too limited if only applications with the arms are considered. According to your understanding and/or definition, can you Peng with your back? How about with your leg or knee? Can any of the other energies be expressed using other parts of your body? I think that they can. This was what I attempted to address in my earlier post. When applications with the arms are the predominant reference point, then understanding/definitions may be limited as a result. I feel that using directions for the energies tends to also be limiting. While they may conform to the predominant way that the energies are typically generated and/or expressed, I caution against making too broad a generalization especially when applied to a definition of the energies.

DP

by **Audi** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 12:33 am

Hi Stephen,

The basic component of the 8 jin is the use of the rising and falling of energy. When you suspend your crown and sink there is an internal downward movement, when this reaches its maximum there is a return force that rises up through the body.

This seems like a description of the Small Circulation. Is that what you mean?

In large changes the rise and fall is a whole body change - the whole body empties and then fills.......

This seems, however, different from how the Small Circulation is characterized, since you seem to be talking more about an alternation. In any case, your description seems quite different from the approach I have been exposed to for the last several years.

Using emptiness to meet the opponents fullness.

It seems clear from your other posts that this is a key concept for your practice, but I must confess that I cannot relate it to what I have been taught or what I have read in the classics. Can you give some references? Even though such references are not necessary to validate your practice, they would help me relate what you are talking about to what I understand.

When I have time, I may also initiate a separate thread to discuss "emptiness." As a preview, I can refer to two questions that I have. First, I am wondering what uses the concept "kong1" has in the classics outside of its use in the phrase "leading someone into emptiness (kong1)." Second, I understand the injunction to distinguish full and empty (xu1) to require a subdivision within yourself and within the opponent, not just between yourself and your opponent.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Can I ask both you and Audi - what do you do to generate movement in taiji?

How do you create your movement?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know that Zhang Yun (not Yang Jun) talks about concentrating on various meridian points to generate the jins, but this is not what I have been taught. You also seem to be referring to yet another type of "generation."

I confess that I am also puzzled as to why you bring up "movement" at all. If we are talking about the Eight Jins, I think movement per se is not the issue, unless we are talking about the movement of energy. If we are talking about the movement of energy, do the classics not say (more or less): "The energy is generated in the feet, developed in the legs, controlled by the waist, and expressed in the hands and fingers"?

I think my formulations may strike you as oriented too much toward application. I am curious if you are familiar with some of the sword or saber jins and whether you also think of them in terms of the direction of "movement generation." I have only touched the surface of the weapon jins, but find it difficult to relate your approach to them.

For me, the salient aspect of the jins is really "purpose," defined with respect to energy. "Purpose" is one of the translations I use for "Yi4" ("mind intent"). Likewise, one translation for "shi4" could be "[energy] configuration." Although movement can be an aspect of this, I do not think of it as primary. What movement generation is implied by a term like "elbow," which I do not think is ordinarily used as verb in Chinese?

I think of "peng" and the other energies in the same way I think of the weapon energies. They define energy relationships according to varying characteristics, e.g.: striking (ji1), pulling (chou1), carrying along (dai4), stabbing (ci4 ), scraping (gua1), chopping (kan3), shovelling (chan3), lopping (duo4), stirring (jiao3), splitting (pi1) etc.

Let me try another list of correspondences for the bare hand energies that might be more reminiscent of the weapons energies:

Peng: protecting/floating
Lu: deflecting/levering
Ji: displacing
An: covering/smothering
Cai: plucking
Lie: twisting/swirling
Zhou: elbowing (secondary movement)
Kao: bumping/rammming/butting (tertiary movement)

Take care,
Audi

by **Yuri Snisarenko** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 4:36 am

Greetings Audi,

do the classics not say (more or less): "The energy is generated in the feet, developed in the legs, controlled by the waist, and expressed in the hands and fingers"?

To be correct,the classics say that jin is rooted in the feet, not generated (i.e. created). If you be so kind to describe 1) how is jin understood in the Yang Zhenduo – Yang Jun line (what does jin consist of) and 2) how it is generated/created and forms, I will put the info from Wei Shuren's book about Yang Jianhou's line and we will be able to compare them. Since these two lines seem to be distinctively different.

The book I have is titled "Methods of inner training in Taijiquan" (Taijiquan neigong xiulian fa) from the series "Yang shi taijiquan shu zhen", volume 4. Published by "National physical education" in 2000.

Take care,

Yuri

[This message has been edited by Yuri Snisarenko (edited 10-13-2006).]

by **Anderzander** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 9:27 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Yuri Snisarenko:
If you be so kind to describe 1) how is jin understood in the Yang Zhenduo – Yang Jun line (what does jin consist of) and 2) how it is generated/created and forms,<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This was what I asked.

Peng is sometimes described as moving energy, and I think it could be said that the rise and fall of peng creates the basis for movement in taiji (when combined with the 5 steps - the movement of zhong ding). Propelled movement as CMC called it.

As I descried before, that rise and fall is altered by the mind to produce the 8 different Jin. So the basic propulsion is the Yin/Yang of Lu and Peng. The peng is combined and a new energy is created, press. The Lu is moved and curved to be sent out forward and that creates An.

I think this is the building blocks of movement - the building blocks of taiji. They are the movement of energy, and the body follows the movement of energy, just as the energy follows the movement of mind.

For a while in my practice taiji was 'happening' - but I had little clarity over it, it was like an amorphous sensation of movement. But as many teachers I came across seemed to extoll seperating the energies, being clear about them, I worked to do that. And they became entirely distinct.

The interaction of the 5 steps and 8 jin are taiji's movement ime.

So my question was how do you move? (by what mechanism) and how do you create the jin in the body?. I was talking about the body and not the use.

I'll post more after food :-)

this was just a general coment and I will do my best to reply to you, Audi and to you, Dp too.

[This message has been edited by Anderzander (edited 10-14-2006).]

by **Anderzander** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 10:54 am

Hi Audi

(First a caveat - I'm off work with a fever so if it reads like nonsense sorry!)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Stephen:
The basic component of the 8 jin is the use of the rising and falling of energy. When you suspend your crown and sink there is an internal downward movement, when this reaches its maximum there is a return force that rises up through the body.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Audi:
This seems like a description of the Small Circulation. Is that what you mean?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, wrong sort of Qi perhaps :-)

Hopefully my previous post will have clarified this a little. I am taking about the rise and fall of Jin, the change from Full to Empty, the stretch (like a bow) and unstretch that the body has when Qi (gravity here) moves down through the body.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Stephen:
In large changes the rise and fall is a whole body change - the whole body empties and then fills.......<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Audi:
This seems, however, different from how the Small Circulation is characterized, since you seem to be talking more about an alternation. In any case, your description seems quite different from the approach I have been exposed to for the last several years.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's how it appears (as perhaps different) so I wondered how you generated movement. What your basic energies were and how you used them.

addendum:

I won't answer your question on the emptiness here as I feel it would split the thread. Perhaps we could exchange mails or transpose your question to a new thread, where I could compose an answer there.

Incidentally:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Audi:

Peng: protecting/floating
Lu: deflecting/levering
Ji: displacing
An: covering/smothering
Cai: plucking
Lie: twisting/swirling
Zhou: elbowing (secondary movement)
Kao: bumping/rammming/butting (tertiary movement)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Application wise I can find great corresondance in my practice in all of those, except perhaps in Peng and Lu.

In the past I had a structure that I applied, deflecting people off (Lu?), using a rising energy to float people of the outside of the structure (peng?). Essentialy deflection, slipping and rotation of structure was the main defense.

Now I'm a lot softer and don't work with a structre. The emphasis is on the neutralisation being done by the transformation of one energy into the other - peng to lu, full to empty.

So the opponent never feels the peng, or fullness, only the transformation (Hua) as you meet his fullness with emptiness.

So no structure only the dissolution of any fullness they find so that there force has nowhere to be exerted (so light a fly sets in motion and a feather cannot alight)

by **Anderzander** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 1:16 pm

edited

[This message has been edited by Anderzander (edited 10-21-2006).]

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