Yang Family Tai Chi Discussion Board

by **Yuri Snisarenko** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 8:32 am

Greetings All,

Here is some info from the Wei Shuren's book ("Yang shi taiji quan shu shu zhen", volume 4) which I hope may broaden our understanding of the similarities and differences between the different branches of Yang style.

In the intro Wei Shuren says that these series of books are the further elaboration of his teacher's (Wang Yongquan, a direct student of the Yang family) book "Yang shi taijiquan shu zhen", and that this book contains rhymed formulas handed down within the oral transmission of Yang Shaohou, Yang Jianhou and Wang Yongquan.

Please keep in mind that my translation below is rough and may contain errors. Louis, I'll be grateful if you correct me in that case. If anyone has comments to the translation, I will be glad to improve it with your help.

~~~

The explanation of the methods of taiji skills training (taiji gongfa shuoming).

Within these methods of taiji skill training movement and stillness are melted as one body. This training opens and develops to a new level the potential of the human's shen, yi, qi. My late teacher told me, that honorable Yang Jianhou used to sit at nights on a rush cushion to train in stillness shen, yi, qi. He also repeatedly told us about the importance of the cultivation of nei qi. If nei qi is not enough, then one won't be able to induce the movement of the posture and create the circle (or the suitable condition) for the (energy?) momentum (qishi zhi yuan). If there is no full condition for the energy momentum (qishi), then jing-shen (vital spirit) won't get raised. Initially we didn't discuss this issue, and the movement of energy (qi shi dongzuo) was unorganized. So the teacher repeatedly criticized us for not having the thing inside.

One day in the spring of 1984 my school brothers invited our teacher to have a walk in the Xiangshan park. The teacher had especially good mood that day walking with us, and we had decided to take photos. I wanted to imprint some form postures of him and asked the teacher to do the "White crane spreads wings" posture. The teacher (agreed but) didn't raise his hands. Smiling, he allowed me to take a picture of the formless "White crane spreads wings". I said, so I can imprint only mental attitude and qi-shi (momentum of qi), not the posture. The teacher had clapped the hands and said: "That's right! To lift the hands is WCSW, but this is internally performed WCSW!" Suddenly I saw the light, it was the "aha moment" for me. I started to see the originally formless internal work of shen, yi and qi. From that time I became (more) interested in the studying of taiji skills.

~~~

Further he presents the three drills (simple movements in the standing position) for the training of shen, qi and yi. The text contains instructional verses (rhymed formulas) to the each drill. These three components – shen, qi, yi, as "the three essentials" seem to be the core of his system. So far, I haven't seen a mention of "needle in cotton" in his writings. But from the start you encounter, as one of distinctive characteristic of his style, the concept of the three "qi rings" (qi quan) around the vertical centerline of the body – shoulders, waist, heaps. The full name of these rings is "san dao qi quan" or "three paths of qi rings". These three rings come from the idea/metaphor of a hanging bell as an image for the body. The top of the bell is on the neck / shoulders level. The bottom of the bell is on the heap level. The three circles take part in the creation/manifestation of neijin as neiqi moves along these paths.

I hope it will be interesting. Any comments are welcome.

Take care,

Yuri

[This message has been edited by Yuri Snisarenko (edited 10-15-2006).]

by **Yuri Snisarenko** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 8:33 am

The passage I've translated in Chinese:

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[This message has been edited by Yuri Snisarenko (edited 10-23-2006).]

by **Richard Man** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 10:41 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Yuri Snisarenko:
The passage I've translated in Chinese:

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1984Äê´º£¬ÎÒÃÇÊ¦ÐÖµÜÑûÇëÀÏÊ¦ÓÎÏãÉ½¹«Ô°¡£
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Ê¼ÖªÌ«¼«ÄÚ¹¦µÄÉñÒâÆøÔ±¾¾ÍÊÇ²»¾ÐÐÎÊ½µÄ¡£
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¿ªÊ¼²»ÖªÆ£¾ëµØ½øÐÐÌ«¼«ÄÚ¹¦µÄÌ½Ë÷ºÍÐÞÁ¶¡£<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ha ha, it's so funny to view the text in different encoding. The words are Chinese, but the meanings are non-sense (FYI for others, simplied Chinese GB2312)

Thanks Yuri. Can you post the text re: 3 Qi Quan?

Also, where do you buy these sorts of books? Are they available online in the States. I am planning to go to HK and Guangdong in Feb 2007. I plan to visit a lot of bookstores then :-)

Thanks.
// richard

by **Yuri Snisarenko** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 3:14 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Richard Man:

Ha ha, it's so funny to view the text in different encoding. The words are Chinese, but the meanings are non-sense (FYI for others, simplied Chinese GB2312)

Thanks Yuri. Can you post the text re: 3 Qi Quan?

Also, where do you buy these sorts of books? Are they available online in the States. I am planning to go to HK and Guangdong in Feb 2007. I plan to visit a lot of bookstores then :-)

Thanks.
// richard<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes it's kind of funny

What is also funny that this discussion board agrees to display characters (without switching the encoding) posted only by Jerry Karin (our honorable administrator) Once I spent a whole day trying to figure out the trick, downloaded a lot of software. But the discussion board said – No.

I don't remember where I bought that book. It was one of the on-line book stores in Chinese internet. It accepted Visa and MasterCard. You surely can find a few of them. However most probably they will be in Chinese only.

The chapter about qi-rings is on eight pages

Here is at the end of the page a bit about qi-rings from works of Wang Yongquan (teacher of WSR) -
http://bbs.ruc.edu.cn/bbsanc.php?path=%2Fgroups%2FGROUP_7%2FHYtaichi%2Ft heory%2Fqita%2FM.1130679770.U0

[This message has been edited by Yuri Snisarenko (edited 10-16-2006).]

by **bamboo leaf** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 4:13 pm

Three rings of qi that surround the hips, waist and shoulders. Their use in the exercises are effective and in addition allow more fluid accurate movements.

· Form a bell. Imagine the body as a bell, divided into 5 points:
1. The hoop that maintains the bell. Which corresponds to the neck. Is movable.
2. The point located between the previous point and point. This corresponds to the chest, and is unmovable ("dead")

3. The central point corresponds to the waist, which is movable.

4. The point located between point 3 and 5 corresponds to the midpoint between the waist and the coccyx (base of the spine). It is unmovable ("dead")

5. The clapper of the bell corresponds to the coccyx which is movable.

i dont have the web link for this but thougth it might help in illumanating some of the practices. The emphasis of this practice seems to be different then most

edited: only to refreance the 3 rings of qi

[This message has been edited by bamboo leaf (edited 10-16-2006).]

by **JerryKarin** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 4:17 pm

Take above with intravenous saline solution.

by **Yuri Snisarenko** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 5:45 pm

LOL

Jerry, two bottles of vodka – and we would be discussing it as if we have known that stuff for ages

by **yslim** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 7:00 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by bamboo leaf:
Three rings of qi that surround the hips, waist and shoulders. Their use in the exercises are effective and in addition allow more fluid accurate movements.

· Form a bell. Imagine the body as a bell, divided into 5 points:
1. The hoop that maintains the bell. Which corresponds to the neck. Is movable.
2. The point located between the previous point and point. This corresponds to the chest, and is unmovable ("dead")

3. The central point corresponds to the waist, which is movable.

4. The point located between point 3 and 5 corresponds to the midpoint between the waist and the coccyx (base of the spine). It is unmovable ("dead")

5. The clapper of the bell corresponds to the coccyx which is movable.

i dont have the web link for this but thougth it might help in illumanating some of the practices. The emphasis of this practice seems to be different then most

edited: only to refreance the 3 rings of qi

[This message has been edited by bamboo leaf (edited 10-16-2006).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi David,

I read your edited 10/16/06 psot with great interest and want to copy it after breakfast. You delated it too soon or I come back not soon enough.anyway too bad.

I read the same kind of history of Yang old time teaching in chinese books.But your Taiji theory what interested me the most. I am trying to practice on that path and your post have strong point to reinforce that understanging which I like very much. Can you post it again,p-lease?

I am on my way out of town now..hope some thing good from you will be waiting in my laptop when I return..

Thank you again and may all have a good Taiji day

Ciao,
yslim

by **JerryKarin** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 7:11 pm

http://www.taijiquandao.com/03paginasingles/04styles/04yang-05-weishuren.htm

by **JerryKarin** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 7:15 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Yuri Snisarenko:
LOL

Jerry, two bottles of vodka – and we would be discussing it as if we have known that stuff for ages

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually I was indicating that it should be 'taken with a grain of salt' ie some doubt or skepticism about the historical part. I don't drink much anymore however your image of an exalted taiji conversation over 2 bottles of vodka is strangely attractive!

by **Bob Ashmore** » Tue Oct 17, 2006 1:10 pm

Jerry and Yuri,
I'll make you guys a deal, because I don't like vodka either...
You guys bring the lemon or limes and salt, and I'll bring the tequila!!!
THEN we'll have a conversation legendary in its depth.
We'll never remember it, of course, but at the time it will be tremendously profound.

;-)

Bob

by **Audi** » Sat Oct 21, 2006 3:58 pm

Greetings Yuri,

Yes it's kind of funny What is also funny that this discussion board agrees to display characters (without switching the encoding) posted only by Jerry Karin (our honorable administrator) Once I spent a whole day trying to figure out the trick, downloaded a lot of software. But the discussion board said ?No.

Yuri, thanks for this. I thought I was just completely incompetent or crazy and couldn't figure this out.

Within these methods of taiji skill training movement and stillness are melted as one body. This training opens and develops to a new level the potential of the human's shen, yi, qi.

I would translate the Chinese as:

The Taiji training method consists of melding movement and stillness together into a kind of internal skill training that develops the potential of the human body, spirit ("shen"), mind ("yi"), and energy ("qi").

I started to see the originally formless internal work of shen, yi and qi.

I think all the traditional approaches to Taijiquan agree with this; however, the question is what to do about it. The answer that seems to have come to me is to rely on the interplay of shen, jing1, and qi, practice the form with the Ten Essentials, and the rest will come. The shen will guide the yi, the yi will guide the qi, and with the qi will come jin.

Expressed more clearly, but perhaps less accurately, this concept could be rendered as: "Let your spirit be reflected in the quality and movement of your gaze ("shen"), which should match the meaning your mind's eye gives ("yi") to your dynamic body alignment, in pieces and as a whole ("qi"). Train diligently this way ("shen"?); and, over time, all aspects will work more and more smoothly ("qi"?) and more and more effectively ("jing1"?) together.

If nei qi is not enough, then one won't be able to induce the movement of the posture and create the circle (or the suitable condition) for the (energy?) momentum (qishi zhi yuan). If there is no full condition for the energy momentum (qishi), then jing-shen (vital spirit) won't get raised. Initially we didn't discuss this issue, and the movement of energy (qi shi dongzuo) was unorganized. So the teacher repeatedly criticized us for not having the thing inside.

This is tough stuff, at least for me, both linguistically and conceptually; but here is how I might translate it:

"If the internal qi is insufficient, then you cannot impel the function/motion of the posture and also cannot attain comprehensiveness of the qi's force. If the qi's force is not comprehensive and complete, the vital spirit (vitality and spirit?) cannot be uplifted. At first, we were confused about the meaning of this and our movements and qi force were scattered and undisciplined. As a result, our teacher would often criticize us for having nothing inside."

I am surprised to hear qi being put before shen. When we discuss jingshen ("vital spirit"), it is usually in the context of the first of the Ten Essentials (i.e., suspending or pushing up the top of the head. Personally, I think of xu ling as representing Zhu Xi's "empty mind." Something like "let the principles ('li3') of reality imprint themselves on your mind (the most refined form of 'qi')." I then think of "ding jin" as drawing the vitality and spirit up the spine into the empty "vacuum" as the neck is emptied and the crown of the head is pushed up.

The concern about empty form movements (bad) and the possibility of formless postures (good) are ideas I would discuss and understand most readily within the concept of ’mæS‰^“® (zhi1jue2 yun4dong4), which we ordinarily translate as "conscious movement." There was an entire thread dedicated to this. At the moment, I might, however, prefer a personal translation that would be closer to "knowledge and perception of mobilization and movement" to bring out the flavor of all four characters. Of these four characters, only the last is truly about an external result. If my view is correct, there are three parts internal for one part external. And yet, the internal is not separate from the external.

Take care,
Audi

by **Yuri Snisarenko** » Sun Oct 22, 2006 3:28 am

Audi, thanks for the comments!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I think all the traditional approaches to Taijiquan agree with this; however, the question is what to do about it. The answer that seems to have come to me is to rely on the interplay of shen, jing1, and qi, practice the form with the Ten Essentials, and the rest will come. The shen will guide the yi, the yi will guide the qi, and with the qi will come jin.

Expressed more clearly, but perhaps less accurately, this concept could be rendered as: "Let your spirit be reflected in the quality and movement of your gaze ("shen"), which should match the meaning your mind's eye gives ("yi") to your dynamic body alignment, in pieces and as a whole ("qi"). Train diligently this way ("shen"?); and, over time, all aspects will work more and more smoothly ("qi"?) and more and more effectively ("jing1"?) together.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I noted that he doesn’t mention jing (essence) speaking about the core of his system, namely shen, yi, qi. This is the difference and peculiarity of his style in my view. Hence probably there is no needle in cotton in his writings.

"If the internal qi is insufficient, then you cannot impel the function/motion of the posture and also cannot attain comprehensiveness of the qi's force. If the qi's force is not comprehensive and complete, the vital spirit (vitality and spirit?) cannot be uplifted. At first, we were confused about the meaning of this and our movements and qi force were scattered and undisciplined. As a result, our teacher would often criticize us for having nothing inside."

That's the better translation, thanks!

I am surprised to hear qi being put before shen. When we discuss jingshen ("vital spirit"), it is usually in the context of the first of the Ten Essentials (i.e., suspending or pushing up the top of the head. Personally, I think of xu ling as representing Zhu Xi's "empty mind." Something like "let the principles ('li3') of reality imprint themselves on your mind (the most refined form of 'qi')." I then think of "ding jin" as drawing the vitality and spirit up the spine into the empty "vacuum" as the neck is emptied and the crown of the head is pushed up.

though jingshen usually is translated as "vital spirit", I see it more as a psychological state of person, ie uplifted jinshen to me means just sort of "good mood".

"Empty mind", xuling is a big and not easy topic. I would suggest you to do your own translation of the first part of "An explanation of the essence and application of taiji" from the Yang 40. In Wile's translation it's on the page 70. From the beginning to the "Both of this are….(including)".

The concern about empty form movements (bad) and the possibility of formless postures (good) are ideas I would discuss and understand most readily within the concept of ’mæS‰^“® (zhi1jue2 yun4dong4), which we ordinarily translate as "conscious movement." There was an entire thread dedicated to this. At the moment, I might, however, prefer a personal translation that would be closer to "knowledge and perception of mobilization and movement" to bring out the flavor of all four characters. Of these four characters, only the last is truly about an external result. If my view is correct, there are three parts internal for one part external. And yet, the internal is not separate from the external.

Again I think that all these notions that come from the Yang 40 is actually an elaboration of "The essences and application" that I mentioned above. So to me that text is a departure point.

Take care

Yuri

[This message has been edited by Yuri Snisarenko (edited 10-21-2006).]

by **JerryKarin** » Sun Oct 22, 2006 6:59 am

I don't think the display of Chinese has anything to do with my id or any special virtuosity on my part. I have Microsoft input method editor installed with Chinese(PRC) and I just type with that, using my preferred input mode, which is QuanPin. Try that and it should yield the same results. The reason it works without changing encoding is: what I'm inputting is the Microsoft default. If you choose some other encoding scheme then you have to specify it to read it. I have, in the last year, switched from MS Internet Explorer to Firefox and use XP at work and 2000 at home and the results are always the same.

by **Yuri Snisarenko** » Sun Oct 22, 2006 10:17 am

//I don't think the display of Chinese has anything to do with my id or any special virtuosity on my part. //
Of course, Jerry, and I remember your instructions. Thanks for reminding them thou.

//I have Microsoft input method editor installed with Chinese(PRC) and I just type with that, using my preferred input mode, which is QuanPin. Try that and it should yield the same results. The reason it works without changing encoding is: what I'm inputting is the Microsoft default. If you choose some other encoding scheme then you have to specify it to read it. I have, in the last year, switched from MS Internet Explorer to Firefox and use XP at work and 2000 at home and the results are always the same. //

I use XP and Microsoft IME Chinese (PRC) v 3.0. I have the following methods in my input method section: Full Pinyin, Double Pinyin and the options - incomplete input, fuzzy input. I suppose you meant by QuanPip - Full Pinyin. That's what I have just tried without desirable result. My Settings - In User function section two options are ON (selected), In Conversion mode section I selected "Word". In Candidate option section I selected "Row style". So I can't figure out the problem.

[This message has been edited by Yuri Snisarenko (edited 10-22-2006).]

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