International Yang Family Tai Chi Chuan Association

The demo included sword, sabre, push hands, the form done large frame and medium frame, but two things really intrigued me.

The first was when Tian Yin Jia himself (his son and his Tudi did all the other demos) demonstrated small frame. He said (through an interpretor)that as well as being the most difficult by far, it was also the original version of the Yangs' form...he demonstrated a section of it and it was incredibly fast and very Shaolin in appearance (to my inexperienced eyes anyway). He described it as both soft and hard, with all the energy coming from internal circles.

When questioned he said there were leaps and kicks in the form also. It was also said that he was possibly the only person alive who truly knew it.

The other intriguing thing was the 'eight brocade' warm-up that was demonstrated -this was described as a preparation for Fa Jing and was a series of explosive martial exercises.

I had never heard of this before and wondered if anyone knew anything more. I was also fascinated by the small frame and would love to find out more about it. The whole experience was mesmerising.

There is an interview here...

Well, from what I understand there is a lot of controversy about the small fast form. Not many teach it and even then the question remains if it is authentic and when and where and by whom it was added to the curriculum.

The same applies to the medium frame/form.

The fact that people continue bickering amongst themselves (style : "what you call medium(or small) frame is crap and my teacher is the only one with the true transmission) surely doesn't help the cause. The fact that masters who claim to have these forms hardly teach them to anyone, doesn't either. Why all the secrecy, hé?

I'm glad that you could attend the demo's/seminars and that ypu liked them. I live in Belgium, which is not to far away, and I thought a lot about coming over and attend, but I couldn't make it in the end.

Take care

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Originally posted by The Wandering Brit:

The other intriguing thing was the 'eight brocade' warm-up that was demonstrated -this was described as a preparation for Fa Jing and was a series of explosive martial exercises.

I had never heard of this before and wondered if anyone knew anything more.

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I suppose this wasn't the 'usual' eight brocades qigong series of exercises then?

Marc

It was said that part of the reason Tian had come to the UK was to open up and pass the knowledge on; his son allowed his demonstration of medium frame (which was also a sight to behold) to be filmed, and Tian allowed himself to be framed doing small frame.

As to the veracity of all the claims- I have no idea whatsoever!

I have not seen the 'standard' eight brocade - parts of what was shown last night were explosive pushes out to the side, I guess not disimilar to the strike after 'step back and ride tiger', accompanied with aloud 'Ha!' each time.

Does that sound like what you are familiar with?

Cheers,

you wrote:

"The first was when Tian Yin Jia himself [...] demonstrated small frame. He said (through an interpretor)that as well as being the most difficult by far, it was also the original version of the Yangs' form... he demonstrated a section of it and it was incredibly fast and very Shaolin in appearance [...]. He described it as both soft and hard, with all the energy coming from internal circles."

Did Tian do the jumping parts too? Wow. Anyway, are you sure that he described the form "as both soft and hard"? It's been written extensively that the jumps and explosive movements were removed as part of the standardization.

This is one of the articles that floats around on the web and that could be of some interest regarding this matter

http://users2.ev1.net/~stma/QuanYou.html

What I find interesting is that Yang Zhenduo seems to deny that there was ever such a form taught by his family.

Gin Soon Chu would know Taiji Chang Quan (Long Fist) because he was a close disciple of Yang Shaozhong. That's probably what you had seen yangchengfu04.

Dong Yingjie had learned it has but he had also learned the Wu/Hao style has well, so he combined both Taiji Long Fist with Wu/hao Fast form.

I wonder why Yang Zhenduo had not learned all his father's forms, does his other brothers know it? Perhaps Yang Zhenji?

"it seems many people seem to forget about the Yeung Sau Chung lineage. You don't hear it even mentioned except for from their students and disciples."

I think that this depends on who'd on the list at the time. The Sau Chung lineage has been mentioned before; but, often, it comes in the form of a question why they practice something that aren't seen in the Chengfu lineage. This often results in a controversy about who had the "full transmission" or who didn't and why. I'm sure that you've heard some of these stories.

I think Yang Jun and Yang Zhenduo want to promote harmony among the various tcc lineages and in the tcc world. So, maybe that's why some of the debates have been avoided. The Tians are very new to the scene, here. If they have been getting a lot of attention, then it's mostly because of that --since none of their long-time students post here (afaik).

But, there are practitioners from other lineages (like Polaris and Wushuer who practice/d Wu style (or North American Wu style). So, there may be more mentions of that style.

However, the idea that the "Large frame" was developed (only) by YCF is missleading. YCF was known for his "Large frame" but he didn't developed it. The "Large frame" was developed inside the Yang family (some say that also YLC made it) for the "public" teaching purposes. YCF aslo practiced the his "small/fast frame". We must not forget that also Yang Shao Hou teached the "Large frame" (not only YCF!) to the public!

There are various advanced/fast Yang forms, but the main versions are:
-> Yang Shao Hou's "Small frame" Form (Advanced Combat Set)
-> Yang Cheng Fu's "Long Boxing" Form (Taiji Long Boxing)
The forms are similar and are based on the "Large frame" and contains elements of the "Old frame" (Yang Lu Chan's form). The two forms were developed for the advanced students.

Tian Zhao Lin learned the "Small frame" from Yang Shao Hou. We could be very gratefull to "Chen Kung" for his "thief", because his book Taijiquan Sword Sabre Staff and Dispersing-Hands Combined is a masterpiece. Maybe if "Chen Kung" hadn't published that book many things about Taijiquan were be lost.

Today the "Small frame" is not present in the Yang family because it was omited by YCF in his teaching after the 1925. Yang Sau Chung was the only "inside" family disciple of YCF, so he was the only son of YCF that learned all the curriculum!

you wrote:

"the form in the "small frame" is done in a more "energetic" level, with small and fast movements."

I'm not sure of what you mean. What is the "energetic" level? and why would it be associated with "small and fast" movements? I.e., why would the "large, slow" form be any less energetic?

sorry, my understanding, when you wrote:

"the form in the "small frame" is done in a more "energetic" level, with small and fast movements."

I misunderstood how you were using the term "energetic". It seems more in line with the conventional (i.e., non-tcc) usage of the term.

As I would then understand it, the large frame could be done as energetically (i.e., with fajin, as Bamenwubu suggested). Other practitioners use "energetic" in a differnt sense.

When you write:

"The large/slow frame is not less energetic but is designed for the beginners (in my opinion up to 15-20 yearsof practice)."

It makes sense, and it's pretty well known that most of the jumps and kicks and "energetic" (if that's the right sense) parts were removed from the form.

(Yes, many schools still retain forms with these features. However, consider the Chen styles where there are kicks from handstands, etc. It could be argued, then, for ex., that Pao Chui is more energetic.

Yet, I don't think students are expected to wait for 10-20 years. This brings up what may be the fundamental distinctions between the Chen and Yang lineages. At least, it might be considered a point where they diverge in terms of their training, if not the desired end result --which is more important, imv.

In brief, I understand (hopefully) the idea that a more vigourous, physically demanding form is more energetic. And, that the large, slow form is less vigourous than others. I am not convinced that the small, fast forms require or cultivate the type of "energy" that people like YCF called chin or jin.

Btw, I don't claim to be able to define "jin." I'm only saying that the distinction is made between it and other types of energy.

I do agree that, after long practice of the long, slow form, one is able to express that "energy" is a small, fast way or any way one desires. It might even be acceptable to say that the small, fast forms are more oriented toward the application of whatever energy is developed.

"All will come at the right time. Continue to practice, there are no secrets/shortcuts ;-)"

Oh, it's too late for me now. But, if I could master myself enough to be ok in the slow long form, I'd be happier than learning another form, anyway.

I wrote in another thread that my own thoughts on the Yang forms not showing Fa-Jing, is that it is a result of development of technique and not to conceal things.

It was raised in Taiji touchstones (Douglas Wile) and Taijiquan classics: an annotated translation (Barbara Davis) that the role of martial arts role in society had (to some extent) become obviated with the introduction of foreign powers and gun’s etc. I believe in the books they talk about an increased interest in personal development through martial arts at this time as opposed to mainly martial.

Historically then it would seem unnecessary at the time that the Yang’s changed the form to do so in order to conceal something martial.

I don’t draw my conclusion though from the historical – I think that perhaps the technique of the Yang’s evolved and the form was altered to reflect this. I see this paralleled in an individual’s development through the art.

The ability and nature of ‘fa-jing’ changes and develops as learning increases.

It seems to finally reach a point where non of the body’s own force is involved in throwing the other person – it’s all done through relaxation and emptiness.

I think the Yang form reflects this.

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Originally posted by oldyangtaijiquan:
When you use Taijiquan, you do fast (explosive) movements, this is different from the practice (slow and even movements).

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just to clarify my post - I see a point where the movement is not explosive, even in use. It can of course be fast.

I agree with everything else by the way

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In my opinion to use Taijiquan one must practice 10 years or more.

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Also for articles and history and other information go to http://www.art-of-energetics.com

Richard

Been reading this topic with interest. From my own research and practice, the fast small frame is an advanced training set meant to put the skills and principles learnt in the slow set into practice at speed. The fajin in the small set is usually short jin, its definitely more mobile and the agility training in the slow set really comes to the fore (ie no double weighting, proper structure, tensionless movement, etc). The fajin is not done in the external form but stresses not retaining any of the jin within the body after emission, it should be transmitted completely into the opponent's body. Its generation is also more through energy and not hard muscular contraction.

The original form of YLC was derived from CCX's form and though I do not claim to know for certain exactly what his form was, I have seen a variety from different lineages from him and the older set still bears similarities with the Chen form. For a look from a published source, Xu Yu Sheng's book (the first on the art) does record a version of it, Xu was a disciple of YJH and had learnt it prior to the art being taught publically. It does bear resemblance to the form handed down from Quan You who had studied under YLC at the imperial palace.

At a later stage, his sons, YBH and YJH changed their forms to become quite similar to the large frame though the fajin was still retained. This would be then the later Yang form prior to YCF's final standardised form.

Interestingly, the form of Quan You was termed the Yang small frame. From WJQ's early transmission, we know it had leaps and both fast and slow movements and other lineages from Quan You also have these characteristics.

The training has always been from slow to fast and not the other way around. Though the fast frame might be viewed as being more applicable martial-wise. The slow form is the main, the fast form an advanced practice that does not replace the main.

We are referring now in this topic is actually the fast frame (quai jia) which is usually smaller in motion externally though not necessarily internally.

YCF had his TC Long Boxing which has come down to us. YSH had his slow form and his fast form, though there are disputes as the exact form of his fast/small set. Regardless of the set practiced though, the basic principles of the art are not compromised.