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Author Topic:   A Small frame stance
Hans-Peter
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posted 07-01-2002 07:47 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Hans-Peter   Click Here to Email Hans-Peter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hallo to everyone,

in my chinese book about Yang Shaohou's small frame form, it is obviously, that a certain kind of stance is used very frequently. Although I don't speak chinese, I've decoded the concerning characters and found as a name for this stance: "lian2zhi1bu". I've translated it as "connected (lower) limbs stance". That is what the drawings and photos show obviously. The two feet side by side, nearly all weight on one foot, the other foot on it's tips. While reading the latest Taichi-magazine about Yang style small frame, I find this stance translated as "shift-cross-stance".
Now,
could anyone help with deeper explanations (maybe from chinese wushu-dictionnaries) of "lianzhibu". I know a stance from some northern external styles which looks pretty the same but the given names are always written in different characters. So maybe it's just the surface that looks identical. So why "shift-cross-stance"? Who can help with "lianzhibu"?

Best regards
Hans-Peter

IP: 171.24.253.44

Erik
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posted 07-02-2002 05:22 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Erik   Click Here to Email Erik     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi Hans-Peter,

You might try asking a practitioner of the Wu Yuxiang branch of Taiji. Sun Lutang stylists especially. They make great use of that stance. In fact it's somewhat of a hallmark of the style. Very practical is usage from what I've seen. Practicioners of the Yang Shaohou lineage seem to be few and far between. It may not be exactly the same but the Sun/Hao stylists might be able to give you some insight.

Good Training - Erik

IP: 203.107.130.8

Louis Swaim
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posted 07-03-2002 01:40 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Louis Swaim   Click Here to Email Louis Swaim     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Greetings Hans-Peter,

I’ve not been able to find the exact term “lianzhibu” that you’re interested in, but I’ve found a term in my _Jingxuan taijiquan cidian_ (Dictionary of Essential Taijiquan Terms) that is similar, and may in fact be an alternate name for the footwork you’re talking about. The term here is “lian2huan2bu4,” which could be rendered “linking step,” “chain step,” or “series step.” Here’s a translation of the entry:

~~~
Lianhuanbu: a taijiquan footwork method. The two feet criss-cross in movement, forward and backward, left and right, mutually linking up in curved arcs, hence the name. This is like the footwork in banlanchui (Deflect, Parry, and Punch).”
~~~

It would seem to me that this term refers to a sequence of footwork, which as in banlanchui manifests as a continuous advance. As you point out, there is this instance of collecting in—“The two feet side by side, nearly all weight on one foot, the other foot on its tips.” In fact there is such an instance in the standard Yang form in the banlanchui sequence prior to the extending of the left parry and the concurrent advance of the left foot (see fig. 47 in Fu Zhongwen’s book). I don’t think the term refers specifically to this “step,” but I think the “step” is an important feature of the “lianhuanbu” sequence. It’s a very powerful gathering in prior to the “fist from the heart.”

Erik is right in pointing in the direction of Sun Lutang, I think. This kind of footwork is indeed characteristic of both Sun Lutang’s taijiquan style and his Xingyi, from what I can gather. There is, incidently, a sequence of forms that he refers to in his Xingyi book using the above term, “linking”: “Wu quan he yi jin tui lianhuan xue” (Study of five fists united as one, linked in advance and retreat). So this could well be a clue for the provenance of the terms “lianhuanbu,” and “lianzhibu.”

Take care,
Louis

[This message has been edited by Louis Swaim (edited 07-03-2002).]

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Hans-Peter
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posted 07-03-2002 09:05 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Hans-Peter   Click Here to Email Hans-Peter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi Erik and Louis,

thanks very much for your replies. The tip to look at Sun Lutang is particularly helpful. As I said, I've knowed this stance from other external arts and always used it in Yang forms (Ban Lan qui, Punch down a. o.) but wasn't aware of that it has a special name. What's still puzzling me a little bit is the "cross" (criss-cross?) in the name, since the feets don't cross. I resume that it's there since it is easier to walk crosswise over the ground from stance to stance if necessary, as with bow stances.

Louis,

for the first time I realize the passage in your book concerning "fist from the heart". Could you explain deeper why this name is used. I other external arts I know this kind of punch is named "Dragon steels (breaks) heart", in Chen style it's "Red fist (covered by hand)". Someone (I think George Xu) mentioned that it's red fist since Yang Luchan has used this movement often as a final punch and should have killed another great master with it (probably only one of many stories). But why is used here "from the heart"?

Best
Hans-Peter

IP: 171.24.253.44

Louis Swaim
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posted 07-03-2002 12:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Louis Swaim   Click Here to Email Louis Swaim     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Greetings Hans-Peter,

The “fist from the heart,” is “quan cong xin fa,” literally, “fist [that] from [the] heart issues.” It refers to the trajectory of the fist in the banlanchui (deflect, parry, and punch) sequence. That is, the right fist begins from the right flank, near the pelvic bone, but then in its forward trajectory it aligns with the centerline of the torso (Fu’s term here is “xinkou,”), and proceeds directly forward “from the heart.” Fu put the “quan cong xin fa” phrase in quotation marks, which would suggest that this is some sort of set phrase in martial arts, but the banlanchui description is the only place I’ve encountered it. In any case, it’s a very useful phrase for understanding the alignment and dynamics of the punch, don’t you think?

You’re right; the feet don’t “cross” one another in the footwork of “lianhuanbu.” I think the “criss-cross” (jiaocuo) is meant to suggest a sort of interlacing or weaving of the footwork, where the feet alternately come in close proximity to each other and then separate into wider stances. The “mutually linking up” phrase in the definition is “xiangkou.” This “kou” verb is interesting, as it is the verb used for “buttoning,” as in buttoning a shirt. So my overall sense of it is that of a series of linking, gathering, or knitting movements. This lianhuanbu terminology is new to me, so I’m kind of making a best guess. If anyone else has any thoughts on it, please comment.

Take care,
Louis

[This message has been edited by Louis Swaim (edited 07-08-2002).]

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Hans-Peter
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posted 07-04-2002 02:24 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Hans-Peter   Click Here to Email Hans-Peter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi Louis,

thanks very much for your informations.

Concerning "Lianhuanbu" - just yesterday a chinese friend who teaches Bagua told me, that there's a Lian Huan "Zhang" in Bagua. Without giving more informations, he said that I just have to use the underlying principle for the feet then I'll understand Lianhuan"bu". In my Bagua-literature I cannot find concrete informations but maybe it's helpful for you.

Cheers
Peter

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tai1chi
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posted 07-04-2002 08:04 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for tai1chi   Click Here to Email tai1chi     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi Hans-Peter,

pmfji, but, fwiw, one foot does literally cross over the other in the traditional Sun style equivalent of banlanchui. As you know, the crossing is very common in Sun's xingyi --it's part of all the fists.
Best,
Steve James

IP: 24.191.124.19

Erik
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posted 07-06-2002 02:21 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Erik   Click Here to Email Erik     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi Hans-Peter,

A good practice is to keep the "3 forwards" pointing in the same direction. Eyes, Lead Hand and Lead Foot. In the "twist-step" we're all talking about we are doing just that. If you draw a straight line from the second toe to the heel and beyond (for both feet), those lines definitely do cross. They cross even though you may do this stance with a wide channel. I use a channel and don't actually "cross-up" either. But the lines that the feet make do - that may be where the term comes from. Just a guess.

Good Training - Erik

IP: 203.107.130.8

Audi
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posted 07-12-2002 05:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Audi   Click Here to Email Audi     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi all,

Louis, I am a little surprised by the trajectory you describe for the "fist from the heart." Are you describing a punch that is in effect launched from the midline, as is done in Wing Chun? Does anyone know if the Fu's and Yang's teach the same technique here?

Hans-Peter, is the step you are questioning the same one that is used in the Chen form just prior to the first Single Whip sequence? If so, you can see this in the closing postures throughout the Wu/Hao Style form in situations where Yang Chengfu's form would have a bow stance. Doc Fai Wong sprinkles this stance as a closing posture throughout his fan form, which I believe is otherwise modeled as a standard Yang Style form. What I have seen on video of his hand form looks like one of the earlier versions of Yang Chengfu's form, with multiple fajing's, a distinctive Cross Kick (Shi zi tui), etc.

Three or four years ago Tai Chi Magazine had an article on the "evolution" of the Yang Style bow step that described this posture, along with an analysis of various foot angles for the front and rear foot.

Take care,
Audi

IP: 207.172.104.146

Louis Swaim
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posted 07-13-2002 12:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Louis Swaim   Click Here to Email Louis Swaim     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Greetings Audi,

You wrote: ‘I am a little surprised by the trajectory you describe for the "fist from the heart." Are you describing a punch that is in effect launched from the midline, as is done in Wing Chun?’

Well, no, that's not what's described. The Wing Chun punch, as I recall, involves little or no turning of the waist or torso, and the fist is, as you say, launched from the centerline. The fist in the Banlanchui sequence definitely involves the turning of the waist, and a change of the torso from an east-southeast to a more easterly orientation. In Fu Zhongwen’s description, the fist is launched from the flank, but as it travels forward it enters the centerline of the turning torso and aligns with it. This seems to be a minor difference from the way Yang Zhenduo does this punch; his fist seems to be aligned more with the outer edge of the frame in the ending posture. In application, of course, it would all depend upon where one’s target lies. In either way of doing it, I think we have an instance where the injunction to “seek the straight in the curved” applies.

Take care,
Louis

IP: 209.86.5.21

Louis Swaim
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posted 07-14-2002 02:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Louis Swaim   Click Here to Email Louis Swaim     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Greetings Audi,

I did some digging, and found some more material on the fist trajectory in Deflect, Parry, and Punch as Fu Zhongwen describes it. Gu Liuxin’s 1982 magnum opus, _Taijiquan Shu_ (The Art of Taijiquan), has exhaustively minute form instuctions of the Yang form. He not only addresses the alignment of the fist with the centerline, but he also uses the phrase “quan cong xin fa” (fist that issues from the heart) that Fu used in his Important Points on the sequence. The description I’ve translated here picks up after the left palm’s “parry” has already issued, and the right fist is at the lower right flank:

~~~
Movement 5:
“The waist turns slightly left. The left hand, sinking the elbow, draws in slightly, its elbow tip about the distance of one horizontal plus one vertical fist from the ribs. The right fist extends forward and upward toward the centerline (zhongxian), it’s thumb about the distance of one horizontal plus one vertical fist from the chest hollow (xiong wo), the heart of the fist obliqely facing the upper left. The eyes look levelly forward. . . .”

Movement 6:
“The waist and torso continue turning left, [until] the torso faces squarely forward, the center of gravity gradually shifting to the left leg [until] the left foot is entirely planted full (ta shi). Bend the left leg, tread (deng) the right leg, forming a left bow stance. The right fist turns in, [causing the] tiger’s mouth to face upward, and strikes out from the centerline in front of the hollow of the chest (xiong wo). Sink the elbow—the elbow joint is slightly bent and not straight. The left palm collects slightly in, [while] sinking the elbow and seating the wrist, [maintaining] a standing palm. The heart of the palm faces right—its edge toward the front, the finger tips obliquely forward and up—placed beside the inner edge of the right forearm at the bend of the elbow. The eyes look levelly forward, with the gaze attending to the right fist striking forth. Lower (luo) the kua and settle (ta) the waist; the sacrum area is firm and filled out, the jin sinks down through the crotch (dang jin xia chen). The jin comes up from the heel of the foot, threading joint by joint to reach the fist (jie jie guan chuan zhi quan). . . .”
~~~

Then in his explanation section following the form instructions, Gu gets even more explicit regarding the trajectory, and adds some wonderful detail regarding the frame:

“In this form, both the right hand’s deflect (ban), and the left hand’s parry (lan) are combined attack and defense movements of close distance hand-to-hand boxing methods. When deflect and parry are deployed, they cannot be too distant from the body. You also must not raise the elbows; from beginning to end you must attend to sinking the elbows [to] attain ‘zhou bu li lei’ (elbows don’t leave the ribs). If you’re able to sink the elbows, you will not only tighten up your defense, you will also enable a great increase of strength (jinli). Issuing the fist’s strike from your own chest hollow’s center line (xiong wo zhongxian), [and] expressing the strike toward the opponent’s chest hollow—this is called ‘fist issues from heart’ (quan cong xin fa).”
~~~

Gu Liuxin was of course something of an acquisitions editor/developmental editor of Fu Zhongwen’s book, as well as the books of other leading taijiquan masters, in the late fifties and early sixties. The fact that his and Fu’s descriptions both refer to this alignment of the fist with the centerline, and both use the phrase “fist that issues from the heart,” suggests that 1) Fu got this from Gu; 2) Gu got it from Fu; or, 3) both got it from a common source.

Audi, does this clarify the concept of the fist’s trajectory? Again, I realize this seems to be slightly different from the trajectory taught by Yang Zhenduo. I initially learned the same described centerline trajectory from my first sifu, and have experimented with both orientations. Do you have any thoughts about the structural merits of the alignment as described?

Take care,
Louis

IP: 209.86.4.13

Hans-Peter
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posted 07-15-2002 04:03 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Hans-Peter   Click Here to Email Hans-Peter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi Louis,

it's great for me to follow your translations of Gu Liuxin concerning Ban Lan Chui. Over the years I've been told in different places, that beside Lan Que Wei this is the heart of Yang Style TJQ. So I always worked a lot on Ban Lan Chui and viewed everything I could get about it particularly carefully. So when you write in your 07-13 post, that there's only a minor difference between Gu's description and the way YZD performs the fist from the heart, I think I've recognized a basic difference.
That's due to different timing of weight shift and waist turn. In your Translation it's said to movement for, that after the weight shift to the left leg, the torso faces squarely to the front(SE). The punch is initiated therefore mostly by a waist turn, after which the torso faces fully west.
Following the form in YZD Morning Glory book I seem to see on photo 68, that his torso already faces fully west, before the weight is shifted to the left. Therefore the punch must be initiated mostly by the weight shift
forward. Therefore the punch is more on the outer frame since the power also goes more straight forward.

I often compare forms of masters due to this topic. Does the first shift weight and then turn waist or does they first turn waist and then shift weight. There are many differences throughout the complete forms in the form playing of different masters. Don't you think that this - in a very basic way - comes from the view one has from a certain posture? This includes the applications or the practical function in the form.
So Louis, is it asked for too much when asking for the translation of the movements 1-4 from Gu's description? I think this will show more differences in the approach to YZD, even dfor the use of the left hand before the parry. I currently analyze a videoclip of a chinese master, doing a form named "Yang Ban Hou Pao Chuan". I think he clearly does the fist from the heart strike the way you've translated. But the action before, is a violent backfist strike with the left fist (using "Lian Zhi Bu"). So I'd be very interrested to see what Gu Liuxing writes about the first part of Ban Lan Chui.

Audi,

thanks very much for your words. In a certain way it's the same stepping as in the Chen style posture you've mentioned. It's also the very same stepping as in the Wu Yu Xian (Wu/Hao) and Sun Lu Tang forms. I just was puzzled since in no description of these forms the "Lian Zhi Bu"-name appears, particularly not the translation "Cross-shift-stance". But after so much helping words from others I meanwhile also think that this is not a bad translation for this stance, when I consider, that in Yang style small frame it always goes back-forth-left-back- right - a.s.o. in a very quick manner.
This stance makes it really much easier than a bow stance. I sometimes use this stance in Yang traditional form for postures as Punch downward, Punch to the groin, Needle at sea bottom and not at last for the final punch in Ban Lan Chui. I feel that it's much easier to sink weight and be very rooted in this stance than in a bow stance. I feel the punches in this stance also have more power, but maybe this is still a relict from my external fighting past.

Do you remember the title of the Doc Fai Wong video showing the fajing aspects you've mentioned in your last post? Please let me know. I do very much research in this certain aspect of Yang style, so reading "Shi zi tui" - my interrest rises.

All the best
Hans-Peter

IP: 171.24.253.45

Louis Swaim
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posted 07-15-2002 01:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Louis Swaim   Click Here to Email Louis Swaim     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Greetings Hans-Peter,

I’ll try to do a translation of Parts 1-4 in Gu’s instructions if I can find the time. In the meantime, I think you have mis-read some of what I wrote, and some of what I translated, with regard to directional orientation. When I wrote “The fist in the Banlanchui sequence definitely involves the turning of the waist, and a change of the torso from an east-southeast to a more easterly orientation,” I was going on the traditional assumption that the practitioner begins the form facing South, therefore the banlanchui sequence would proceed toward the East, so I don’t understand how you arrive at the directions you mention.

I don’t agree that Yang Zhenduo’s banlanchui weight-shift timing or waist turning differs from Fu Zhongwen’s or Gu Liuxin’s descriptions. The only difference I see is the trajectory and final placement of the punch. I don’t suspect that this matters a great deal in the efficacy of the punch. My sense of it is that as long as the punch is delivered within what you have called “the channel,” the structure should be just fine, but I would welcome the thoughts of others on that.

As to your mention of a "Yang Ban Hou Pao Chuan" form, maybe I'm wrong, but my initial reaction is one of wariness. That sounds extremely suspect to me, like perhaps someone may have made something up.

Take care,
Louis

IP: 198.45.18.20

JerryKarin
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posted 07-15-2002 09:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for JerryKarin   Click Here to Email JerryKarin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yang Zhenduo shifts forward and turns the waist at the same time. I have observed this quite clearly in person and it is made quite clear in his recent book in Chinese too. It would be violating the principles to do otherwise. Basically all moves are driven by the waist.

[This message has been edited by JerryKarin (edited 10-01-2002).]

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Louis Swaim
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posted 07-16-2002 01:35 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Louis Swaim   Click Here to Email Louis Swaim     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Greetings Jerry,

I agree completely. I’ve observed it in person, and it’s clear in his written form instructions. I’m really looking forward to your finished translation!

Hans-Peter, if you look carefully at figures 68-69 in the Morning Glory book, there is clearly a change in the direction Master Yang’s torso is facing. It begins facing east-southeast, and finishes facing due east. The same torso-waist turn can be seen in photos of other occurrences of the banlanchui punch in figures 237-238, 274-275, and from the opposite side in figures 460-461. In each case, the turning of the waist accords with the shifting of the weight forward.

Take care,
Louis

IP: 165.247.220.166

Hans-Peter
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posted 07-16-2002 02:53 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Hans-Peter   Click Here to Email Hans-Peter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi,

thanks for the the clear words on YZD's techniwue.

Louis,

your absolutely right - I also mean that the endposition of the Ban Lan Chui move is to East. W is nonsens.

The Ban Hou Cannon fist is on a chinese video production, I guess it was for TV. I've seen many "made up" things, but this one seems very authentic to me, although it's difficult for me to decide, since the overdubbed english comments are not the full translation of the chinese comments. But this tape deals with more than 30 forms from all major families and concerning the other forms I know everything shown there is ok.
There are several Yang forms featured (not complete) including Yang style small frame (form is same as described in literature)sword, broadsword and -very interesting -demonstrations by Yang Zhenji on barehandform and broadsword. Among them there are parts of another form shown, titled "Yang Ban Hou Old frame". I've heared people talking about those forms by times, but noone really knows clear facts. But in Tai Chi magazine April 2002 article about Yang style application frame, the author also mentions a style named "Ban Hou boxing",
so I'm not sure if what the chinese narrator calls "Ban Hou Pao Chui" is just "made up", although I'm also very careful with informations like this and every information on this subject is very welcome. If anyone is interrested in this video, it could be obtained at www.plumflower.com ("A world tour of Tai chi"). BTW - to me there seems to be familiarities with what I've seen on videos from "Fu Nei Pai Yang Style". But maybe my knowledge is not enough to decide this clearly. Superficially it looks so.

My best
Hans-Peter

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JerryKarin
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posted 07-16-2002 03:10 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for JerryKarin   Click Here to Email JerryKarin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hans-Peter, I'm not qualified to comment on the small-frame and Ban-hou forms on the tape and in the literature, so I won't. One thing that has to be mentioned is that finding/inventing older and older antecedents for something one is doing is a productive mechanism in Chinese culture in general, not just taiji. Chinese are all very aware of this and take it all with a grain of salt.

IP: 172.194.133.209

Audi
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posted 07-17-2002 10:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Audi   Click Here to Email Audi     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi all,

Hans-Peter, what I saw of Doc-Fai Wong’s hand form was just a few seconds of clips included in the introduction to his Wind Chasing Fan Video. I recognized the style of his form from the clips and recall fajing in connection with some of the heel kicks and a left to right crescent kick that seemed to correspond to where Shi Zi Tui (Cross Kick) falls in the form. I presume the clips come from his video entitled Yang Family Tai Chi 109 Form, Item 1251 from the Wayfarer Publications Catalog (www.tai-chi.com), which I have not viewed myself.

Louis, thanks for the clarification about the trajectory of the fist. I find it interesting, intriguing, yet still somewhat puzzling. If indeed the fist must come from the hollow of the chest, it would seem that it cannot be fully powered all the way from the hip. I find it hard to envision a force vector that would curve up and inward to the centerline and then outward in a straight line. However, maybe what you are describing is a punch that terminates at the centerline, but only appears to come from the heart. Let me theorize.

In helping to teach the Saber Form, I have become more attuned to the fact that many of the trajectories we envision for the arms are actually incorrect, because we switch our frame of reference back and forth from the stationary floor to our rotating torso. What may be a circle or curve with respect to the floor, may be quite a different shape with respect to the torso, or vice versa. In this case, although we may envision the fist as beginning at our side or flank, it is actually already quite “in front” of the body and near the center line, since the elbow and fist are actually oriented east and west with the fist on the south side of the body, whereas our torso is oriented southeast to northwest. If the fist is “snuck” just a little “forward” (eastward) and up during the beginning of the waist turn, I can see how it is possible to “launch” it with full arm force (on top of the force already being generated by the rest of the body) from the heart and centerline. Does this make any sense?

By the way, this discussion reminds me of a sharp memory I have of Yang Zhenduo demonstrating this punch, probably on the video, but perhaps in person. If memory serves, he was illustrating some point other than the trajectory of the fist. I remember it because I noticed something odd about the rotation and direction of the face of his fist and/or the position of his fist with respect to his elbow. It seemed to me that his fist was not between his elbow and his striking point, but I was unsure if this was deliberate, a byproduct of the fact that he was emphasizing another point, or just an optical illusion. I recall this because what I saw was quite different from the “Karate” principles I understood, but did not match anything I had heard or read yet in Taijiquan. I do not recall noticing this orientation at other times, but wonder now if I was seeing something related to this issue of launching the fist from the heart. At the time, I was most interested in the fact that the fist rotated much, much earlier than I was taught in my Karate.

A perhaps different thought I have is that I have been operating under the assumption that the Yangs have a form principle that dictates that the Jin point of a straight arm always ends up in line with the shoulder and that the Jin point of a curved arm lines up with the centerline. Is this what everyone else understands? I raise this in this context, because I have been assuming that the fist in the Yangs’ form must end up in line with the right shoulder, regardless of its origin.

Take care,
Audi

IP: 207.172.104.146

Hans-Peter
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posted 07-19-2002 02:02 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Hans-Peter   Click Here to Email Hans-Peter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi Audi,

my actual ideas about the punch are these:

After the right backfist has deflected something downward, it prepares for a heavy blow. You try to hide this from the opponent's eyes. Therefore you hide the right hand in good position behind the left hand (that's why in Chen style this posture is called "Fist covered by hand"). Since the left hand is at chesthight, therefore the right fist also has to be at chesthide. If your torso now is square (to SE or SSE)then when bending the right elbow, the right fist automatically comes to stay near the heartregion,but the fist's face (I think that's what you mean when you talk about "jin-point") is already facing East.When you now rotate your torso to the left, the fist can strike out straight to the East and it comes from the heart. There's not necessarily a curve in the fist's path.
Regards
Peter

IP: 171.24.253.44

DavidJ
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posted 07-19-2002 12:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for DavidJ   Click Here to Email DavidJ     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi Hans-Peter,

I have seen a clip labeled "Ban Hou Pao Chui" and, while I have no idea of the accuracy of the claim, it does look like Chen style with a Yang style feel to it. Even more interesting is that the performer looks like Yang Jun.

You wrote, > After the right backfist has deflected something downward, it prepares for a heavy blow. You try to hide this from the opponent's eyes. Therefore you hide the right hand in good position behind the left hand (that's why in Chen style this posture is called "Fist covered by hand"). <

This usage is taught in Tung's style, too. At the beginning of the punch the right hand is near the belly button, and the left hand is between the right fist and the opponent's eyes.

You also wrote, > Since the left hand is at chesthight, therefore the right fist also has to be at chesthide. <

Is this for when the opponents eyes are at chest height?

The punch's path makes an arc from near the belly button to the height of the chest. All during the punch, especially the top part of arc, left hand is drawn back, keeping it between the punch and the opponent's eyes.

Regards,

David J

IP: 152.163.189.236

Audi
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posted 07-19-2002 04:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Audi   Click Here to Email Audi     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi Hans-Peter and David:

Interesting comments about the left hand hiding the punch. I had always that the "Lan" of "Ban Lan Chui" referred to using the left palm to pin ("obstruct") the opponent's right arm near his or her body, after it had been parried to the right by your right arm. What do you both think the opponent is doing while you shield his or her eyes and prepare the punch?

Take care,
Audi

IP: 207.172.104.146

Hans-Peter
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posted 07-22-2002 03:41 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Hans-Peter   Click Here to Email Hans-Peter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi Audi,

in my general guideline of Ban Lan Chui I deflect the right arm of the opponent with my right backfist. He then can come out with his left. I parry his left at the hight of my chest with my left backhand or with my left forearm. You can check with a mirrow, that even the forearm is enough to hide the right fist. When using the forearm, you can irritate his eyes with your left hand additionally and you can turn the opponent to left and still have the left hand free to protect against another right hand action of the opponent. But you can also grab the opponents left arm, pull the arm out of the way and hold him while punching his open left side with your right fist.

Hans-Peter

IP: 171.24.253.45

Audi
Regular Contributor
posted 07-23-2002 10:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Audi   Click Here to Email Audi     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi Hans-Peter,

It would seem that your preferred application requires that your left hand cross your midline to ward off the opponent's left-hand strike. Is this how you do the form, or am I misunderstanding your description?

Take care,
Audi

IP: 207.172.104.146

Hans-Peter
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posted 07-24-2002 03:01 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Hans-Peter   Click Here to Email Hans-Peter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi Audi,
thanks very much for your interest in the way I do Ban lan chui.
I'll do my best to describe what I "actually" prefer to do.
My left hand don't cross my midline, since my navel points the same direction as the toes of my right foot, which is to SE (although I generally use a bit larger angle than 45 degrees). So after deflecting with my right hand I stay with torso facing SE.
Left hand which followed the right hand is
on left side of the body, somewhat below chest hight. I've closed the left foot to the right foot to form this certain "lianzhibu" stance. While making contact between my left arm and the opponents left to wward them off, I make an unweighted step with the left foot forward to the east. Right hand forms fist in front of the heart, left now is at chesthight on the left side, navel still points to SE.
Then I actually shift back weight a little bit (difficult to describe this in words)"to the middle"(between the two feet), still pointing the navel to SE.
Then I rotate waist, shift weight to left, pull back the left hand a bit and punch out the right. This has a little bit from Chen style, but for me this delivers maximum power. Although the fist comes from the heart, the whole action comes from the muiddle (-position) to where I've shifted the weight for a very short moment.
None of my hand crosses the centerline in this posture.
Can you imagine now what I do? I hope so, but I permanently work on this special posture so every critic is warmly welcome.
My best to everyone
Hans-Peter

IP: 171.24.253.45

DavidJ
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posted 07-24-2002 04:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for DavidJ   Click Here to Email DavidJ     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi Audi,

You asked, > What do you both think the opponent is doing while you shield his or her eyes and prepare the punch? <

If you're in a position to unload the punch properly, after the set up, the hammer is dropped with little or no notice. Your question covers a very small amount of time. What the opponent is doing is not seeing the punch coming.

Are you really asking about what comes before the punch is on its way?


Regards,

David J

IP: 152.163.207.57

DavidJ
Regular Contributor
posted 07-31-2002 03:35 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for DavidJ   Click Here to Email DavidJ     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi Louis,

I appreciate the good work that you're doing, unraveling these skiens of thought. A few notes, though.

On July 3, you wrote, > The two feet side by side, nearly all weight on one foot, the other foot on its tips.” In fact there is such an instance in the standard Yang form in the banlanchui sequence prior to the extending of the left parry and the concurrent advance of the left foot (see fig. 47 in Fu Zhongwen’s book). <

In the copy of the book that I have, in fig. 47 the left foot isn't "on its tips," it's in the air. There is no mention of touching the left foot down in the text, either.

On July 14 you wrote [in movement 5] > the heart of the fist obliqely facing the upper left. <
[large snip]
> The fact that his and Fu’s descriptions both refer to this alignment of the fist with the centerline, and both use the phrase “fist that issues from the heart,” suggests that 1) Fu got this from Gu; 2) Gu got it from Fu; or, 3) both got it from a common source. <

I thought "heart of the fist" and "fist of the heart" were references to different things. Are you saying that these are the same terms, or simply that it was a common juxtaposition?

Thanks,

David J

IP: 64.12.97.6

Louis Swaim
Regular Contributor
posted 07-31-2002 01:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Louis Swaim   Click Here to Email Louis Swaim     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi David,

Thank you for your comments, and for your keen observations. You are absolutely correct that in the form I referred to, the toes of the left foot do not touch the ground, and *all* of the weight is in the right leg. I’m sorry to have misled. I was quoting Hans-Peter’s description of a stance, and what I was observing is a similarity of configuration between his description and this transition within the “Deflect, Parry, and Punch” sequence, as depicted in fig. 47. That is, there is a collecting or gathering up of the body, with the left foot drawing in close to the center of gravity, prior to the “lan”—the left palm parry. Classically, this would be considered an instance of “closing” (he) prior to the “opening” (kai) of the parry. Although in the Yang form the left toes do not touch the ground, they do drop downward as the leg is drawn up from the knee. I don’t know much about Sun style taijiquan, but in observing photos of Sun Lutang’s form, he seems to exploit this configuration frequently, and in his form the toes do appear to come in contact with the ground.

Regarding “heart of the fist” (quan xin) and “fist that issues from the heart” (quan cong xin fa), these are different things altogether. The “heart of the fist” refers to the palm side of the fist—where the fingertips of the curled fingers meet the palm—as opposed to the back of the fist. Another fist term is “hukou” (tiger’s mouth), which refers to the opening surrounded by the knuckles of the thumb and index finger—that is, the top of a “standing fist.” A related term is “zhangxin” (heart of the palm). The term xin, while literally meaning the organ of the heart, also can mean the center, middle, or the core of something. (Aha! A metaphor!) In Fu’s description, for example, he used the term “xinkou,” (heart-mouth) which can refer to the “pit” of the abdomen. Gu Liuxin used a different term for the same thing: “xiongwo,” which means the “hollow of the chest.” So, to clarify, in Gu’s description, “heart of the fist” refers to the orientation of the fist at one point in its forward travel. The “fist that issues from the heart” refers to the fist’s trajectory once it has aligned with the centerline of the torso.

Take care,
Louis

[This message has been edited by Louis Swaim (edited 07-31-2002).]

IP: 198.45.18.20

Audi
Regular Contributor
posted 08-03-2002 11:26 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Audi   Click Here to Email Audi     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
David,

In asking about what the opponent is doing while you are hiding your fist, I had this in mind.

In my understanding of our branch of Taijiquan, one does not launch techniques through the air while treating the opponent as a target. Instead, my understanding is that techniques always involve some simultaneous control of the opponent's flow of energy (i.e., na jin). In describing shielding your fist, it sounded as if you and Hans-Peter were describing a moment in which no meaningful content was being made with the opponent's body and the opponent seemed free to act.

From other postings that you and Hans-Peter have made, I think you both share at least some of my viewpoint and so was curious as to what you felt the opponent was doing while your punch was being hidden. Under what I was taught of Karate combat theory, a Karate-trained opponent would have at least one arm chambered at this point to prepare for a strike that would be timed to land at least as quickly as the strike you propose.

The viewpoint of a Karate opponent would be to try to unload his or her counter punch quicker than we could take any action, hidden or otherwise, and so render the precise details of that action irrelevant. My Taiji viewpoint is that I should always be moving in such a way that the opponent cannot attack without creating a weakness in his or her position. That is why I understood the left palm as doing "lan" or obstructing and why I understood this obstruction to be continuing throughout my punch.

Of course, the left palm and arm can have more than one purpose, and so I can see that hiding the fist could be one consequence of one's body position.

Take care,
Audi

IP: 207.172.104.146

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