International Yang Family Tai Chi Chuan Association

My Shifu does the same thing. He says that sung or relax is the first key to taiji skill and energy. My great grandteacher. Li Ya Xuan wrote an article which includes an explanation of this. I don't have the link in front of me but it can be found on our site dongfangtaiji.5u.com Look at the favorite links page for the article by Li Ya Xuan. There are some cool push hands and forms links on there too.

Take care,

quote:

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Originally posted by mls_72:
Is there not a saying somewhere that Yang Chen fu would repeately tell his students to say the word "sung" constantly during practice.... almost as if it was a taoist mantra to be said 1000 times a day?

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Greetings Matt,

I have not heard of Yang Chengfu asking his students to say the word “song” during practice. Zheng Manqing wrote in his Thirteen Chapters book that Yang would repeatedly tell his students “at least ten times” each day that you must loosen (yao song), you must loosen completely (yao song jing), you must allow the whole body to loosen open (yao quanshen songkai).

He was repeatedly telling his students to “song,” but that’s different from telling them to say the word “song.”

Take care,
Louis

Louis, thank you for the clarification. You reminded me that correct translation plays crucial role in the understanding of masters' words. The task of translating taiji quan language/terms was always quite difficult but it was especially hard in the beginning of the Tai Chi history in the West. I imagine what a challenge it was for the translators when Pr. Cheng started to explain the principles of his subtle art. Surely they were good translators and they did their best but I think the task was too complicated to avoid mistakes.

For example if the word 'song' (sung) or 'songkai' is rendered only as 'to relax' I think it would be something like "spaghetti" type of Taiji. Especially if the translator following the master repeats this word 100 times a day and puts into it only the meaning of relaxation.

This example is not unique. I especially would like to re-explore his writings about internal part of the art. I'll very appreciate it if somebody can tell me when Professor's works in Chinese were published last time and is there any bookshop in the net that sells them overseas?

Thank you,

Yuri

what does this term mean? i have herd it used many times. Just wondering what others mean with the use of it.

thanks

In fact in the video with YZD en YJ that was produced during their first visit in the USA, YZD explains this very well. This video comes with a translation. I will try to scan the text tonight of this fragment and publish it here.

It's about the difference between song1 and rou2. Song1 means relaxed but not weak or soft which is rou2. Cooked spaghetti is rou2 because there is no springlike quality in it.

This is all for now, the text follows later today.

Marc

P.S 1 : I seem to have made a mistake. I remembered rou but not ruan. There is a difference between those. It is ruan that is the spagetthi thing I believe. Anyway the explanation by YZD is clear, perhaps one of the sinologists on this board can comment?

P.S. 2 As promised. But before I publish the excerpt I want to state where I stand regarding copyright. The text is from a booklet with the transcript of all YZD said on the video that is still available from 'A taste of China'. This instructional video was taped in 1990! So it is somewhat of an historical document. Since then video material of the traditional yang style as performed by YJ and (in this case partly) by YZD has become available from other sources as well, but the explanations are generally speaking shorter and the subtitling of very poor quality. Here you get an excellent translation in the bargain, so I can only encourage you to buy the videos. I believe that the quotation that I post here is within the copyright law as it is a quote from the original, only a small percentage of the total text and provided within the context of a discussion.

[QUOTE]
The Essential Points were stated above. Next we shall discuss the approach for training. One of the approaches of training is fang song (let loose or relax). From this fundamental approach, we begin our practice.
"Let loose" in everyday life is easy to explain. lt's not so simple in taijiquan training. This is because taijiquan uses the philosophy of yin and yang and is concemed with the transformation and changes in these two concepts.
Fang song is an approach of training. It is a strategy; it is not something tangible. Today there are many practitioners of Yang style taijiquan, and unfortunately many have not fully comprehended the meaning of fang song, and they misinterpret its meaning. This is because song (relax or loosen) and ruan (soft) were put into the same category. Many think that song is ruan. What we consider as song is not ruan. Song requires that the joints and the muscles be intentionally letting loose, and extended. This is loosened up and extended out. Extended. [He illustrates.) It is not ruan. It is not this way nor this way. If it is this way, it will be difficult to express the jin.

[SNIP]

By following the idea of -using your mind to relax, you will attain power naturally. You should intentionally let loose. Similarly to what I mentioned in the Ten Essentials-sink the chest and lift the back; sink the shoulder, drop the elbow, settle the wrist, and extend the fingers-it is not necessary to use forceful muscular strength. When you can sink the shoulder, drop the elbow, settle the wrist, and extend the fingers, you will have power without the need to exert forceful muscular strength. You simply let loose-relax and extend. You will have power without the need to exert forceful muscular strength. You will attain power naturally. Without having to think about it, you will have jin.

[SNIP]

What is meant by song is not the song that means "slack and soft," it is the song that means loosen and extend."
Now let's discuss the differences between rou (gentle yielding) and ruan (soft). Ruan is generally defined as empty, that is, hollow. Rou, on the other hand, is ductile. For example, when we practice, if we do it this way, it appears hollow (empty). Therefore, the extension is done this way. It should be this way. But not like this. Not this way.
One must be extended. If we extend this way, the blood circulation is smooth and the body is comfortable. In this strike, the body is comfortable and smooth. All these movements are smooth.
When the waist moves, the hips and the torso move, then express to the fingers. This way is smoother.
Everyone should comprehend fully the meaning of fang song, let loose, in practice. One should be loose and extended, not loose and soft. I hope you will pay attention to this during practice. We require this kind of song: loose and extended. Not this one.

Extended, you see. When done this way, it will be more comfortable. "Press" is also very comfortable. But it doesn't matter which posture you are doing, it should all be like this. You should let loose in 'Fist under the Elbow" and in "Repulse Monkey." Extend, settle the palm, lift leg, and step backward. Fast or slow, the principle is the same. When doing it faster it's still the same. Strike forward with speed. We do it slowly, we do it with jin.
lt doesn't matter whether it is -Slant Flying" or "Part The Wild Horse's Mane." Of course the physical movements are not the same. "Slant Flying" requires a large step, to here. 'Part The Wild Horse's Mane" is primarily a ward off, which steps forward. However, they both need the walst movement and both need to be extended.
Power reaches the four extremities of the legs and hands. Doing it this way is more appropriate.
The training approach of fang song is to let loose; once we can distinguish it clearly, that is good.

[SNIP]

In rou and ruan, the distinction is this: ruan (soft) is hollow or empty, whereas rou (gentle yielding), is ductile.
Fang song can be explained with the iron and steel analogy. Raw iron is processed under high temperature melting and other processes, then converted into steel. If we compare the raw iron to li, then the high temperature melting (refinement process) is analogous to fang song. High temperature melting turns the raw iron into liquid. lt is then refined until it becomes steel. This refining process is an approach to make steel; likewise,fang song is an approach, a method, analogous to the high temperature melting refinement process, required in turning iron into steel.
We compared localized li (forceful muscular strength) to raw iron. After high temperature melting or refinement processes, the fang song process, it is converted into steel, into what we call jin.

[SNIP]

We conclude this topic here.

[END QUOTE]

"Zoom, zoom, zoom…." :-) I can't stop laughing…

David, I share Marc's comment on "spaghetti type" completely. Sometimes I couldn't displace my teacher's hand when he was standing in certain taiji posture with song in his body.

Marc, I am looking forward to see that explanation. Sounds very interesting.

"Sung, sung, sung"

“In rou and ruan, the distinction is this: ruan (soft) is hollow or empty, whereas rou (gentle yielding), is ductile.”

Thanks for posting these transcripts from Yang Zhenduo’s presentation. I think today I’ve learned a new word: “ductile,” or I just hadn’t keyed in on it before. So it’s something like malleable, flexible, pliable, and yielding. The contrast with ruan is interesting. When you buy doufu in a Chinese market, you usually have a choice between firm and soft varieties. The soft kind is called “ruan,” and I generally don’t buy that kind. When I try to stir-fry with ruan doufu, it crumbles and becomes mushy. The firm kind of doufu is yielding and pliable, but it maintains its integrity better when cooked.

Here's the main definition:
duc·tile ( P ) Pronunciation Key (dktl, -tl)
adj.
Easily drawn into wire or hammered thin: ductile metals.
Easily molded or shaped. See Synonyms at malleable.
Capable of being readily persuaded or influenced; tractable.

I liked this one, too:
capable of being drawn out or hammered thin <ductile metal> —duc·til·i·ty /"d&k-'til-&t-E/ noun plural -ties

While I don't think this was exactly what the Grand Master had in mind, I DID feel like I'd been pounded out flat and left to dry after Master Yang Jun's seminars here in Louisville!!!

I think often times, different masters emphases different aspects, until one develops a sense of their own taiji, the differences in others may be taken as incorrect instead of developmental stages.

My own style is very soft, and low compared to many others I see in the park. Its also very fluid some might even call it spaghetti.

What I see, look for in others is degrees of awareness in their movement. Light, agile approaching emptiness but not quite. To achieve this one really has to be very, soft.

Like mmmm spaghetti, hold the meat balls please.

david

"In Taiji we should be sōng, not sóng!"

(“sóng”: 1) semen; 2) worthless, spineless weakling who fears everything; a ‘limp dick’)

I can imagine Yang Luchan coming to Beijing with an accent telling everyone the secret of his art lies in being ‘sóng’! Dare anyone try to correct him?

quote:

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Originally posted by Marc Heyvaert:
Fang song can be explained with the iron and steel analogy. Raw iron is processed under high temperature melting and other processes, then converted into steel.

...

High temperature melting turns the raw iron into liquid. lt is then refined until it becomes steel. This refining process is an approach to make steel; likewise,fang song is an approach, a method, analogous to the high temperature melting refinement process, required in turning iron into steel.

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One more time I understood that what seemed to be clear as daylight to me, actually, I think I don't truly know.

Marc, many thanks for sharing that explanation.

I thank you all, I believe I have gleaned some clarity on the matter.

So that's why those sailors are always singing!

Zoom, zoom, zoom

Psalchemist~
(Certainly glad for anonymity after that! )

All,
I wanted to elaborate on my last post, because I see that it can be misconstrued.
I didn't mean that I felt BADLY after the seminars.
Far from it.
I have never felt better than I did after the seminars were over, honestly.
But it took a couple of days.
My poor body had not done so much TCC in one day in about ten years, and then I did it for two whole seminars, the hand form and the sword form, for six hours a day, for six days straight.
My legs felt like they had been hammered out thin, that's for sure.

Whew, I feel better now. That was on my mind a good part of the night after I posted it.
I don't want anyone to think that the Masters seminars cause permanent debilitation!
It's only temporary.

quote:

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Originally posted by Louis Swaim:
When you buy doufu in a Chinese market, you usually have a choice between firm and soft varieties. The soft kind is called “ruan,” and I generally don’t buy that kind. When I try to stir-fry with ruan doufu, it crumbles and becomes mushy. The firm kind of doufu is yielding and pliable, but it maintains its integrity better when cooked.

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Hi Louis

I'm fairly certain that they are both the same - but the firmer one is partially deep fried.

I think the soft one is used in soups etc or deep fried at home.

I should perhaps check with my brother in law (he's the chef) - but I think that's right.

Stephen

ps - just in case you wanted to make soup or try some deep frying

No, I was referring to different grades of doufu, typically sold as "soft" and "firm." Neither is sold as deep fried.

This is bringing back fond memories of Taiwan back in the eighties. My bus used to pass a traditional doufu shop in Xin Dian on my way to Taiwan National University in Taibei. The sun would just be coming up, and you could see the workers through the open doors, around big steaming bamboo vats. I can almost smell it! I could use a nice bowl of doujiang right about now. Breakfast of champions!

THAT’S what I’m talkin’ about! Yes, douhua—it’s like eating clouds. I think street food, and the food in general, is what I miss most about Taiwan.

My wife and her family are cantonese - and as I'm vegetarian they think I need feeding up..... I get to eat some great doufu dishes.

If ever either of you are in England - we can eat in the restaurant

Mmm, a few short thoughts. What I do is very fluid, but full of mind. So light that a leaf has now where to rest, a fly cannot land.

(Feels kind of good. You're loose, you're free, nice and cozy, no resistance, no troubles, no hard work, it's nice and easy.
But try being "song" in the limp spaghetti way during tuishou and you've got another story. It's not very relaxing to get plucked and pulled and offset constantly because you have no "song" of the kind described by the GM in your footwork and so your legs and hips just collapse when you are pulled, pushed, twisted or split)

actually its quite hard to do. All movement starts in the mind, the dantian moves, this wave is transferred throughout the body. An tension in the body or self directed movement will block this process. Some may feel that they are doing it, but most that I have seen really don¡¯t have whole body movement or understand the mind in their practice. It really takes quite a while. the spaghetti needs to be cooked, takes time.

In answer to your questions, think of this. If you feel the intent of the mind first because your so relaxed (song) you can lead it, and follow the body. (he starts last but arrives first) This works very well with people who like to pull, push and twist.

The problem for many is that their still working against the body, not really feeling the force or maybe jin is a better word. By the time they feel it, its to late they end up pushing, pulling, and twisting instead of following and leading.

Which if your working on a different level, makes if very difficult to do anything against, as there is no against.

(I feel that "sung" as described by the Grand Master gives you that balance between soft and hard that is so necessary to traditional Yang style TCC. You can move easily, and adapt to any force, but you're not so loose than you just get tossed around.)

follow what your practice is about.

A different take, its not about soft or hard, but about balance. If you get tossed around its because your movement is either directed by you (not following), or your to late to change(not sensitive enough). In either case its because your mind is not aware (dull) and your body is still not soft enough (hard parts, means parts that cannot change). needs more cooking

david

And how does this total relaxation work for sparring or push hands?)

I have pushed with people in Taiwan, china and here. They seemed to like it, know that¡¯s it very hard to really do.

[This message has been edited by bamboo leaf (edited 12-07-2004).]

My own experience is that lightness is balanced with sinking to meet the situation.

Lightness with no sinking becomes floating. Sinking with no lightness becomes heaviness - both are faults.

Lightness comes from suspending the crown.
Sinking comes from relaxing and using the Yi to sink the Chi.

The sinking, relaxing and lightness create emptiness.

The balance of sinking and lightness is your choice - providing you have emptiness.

The only thing I would add is that I am constantly suprised by just how much relaxation will still overcome the opponent. It's much more than I think.

Stephen

I agree with Anderzander. Sometimes even within the boundaries of the one style we may see two sub-styles that seem different as heaven and earth. But I think that this difference, actually, is mostly exterior. Unfortunately without deep knowledge of the principles it's impossible to trace their core and origin. Therefore I with my limited knowledge usually can't clear see why this or that advanced practitioner of the other sub-style emphasizes something in his/her practice that differs from my attitude.

But I am quite sure that there are some obvious criteria in the taiji that make taiji real. Of course one of these criteria is tuishou proficiency but it is not all. Somebody may just enjoy what th practice of taiji form makes with his body.

Concerning tuishou:

" So light that a leaf has now where to rest, a fly cannot land" – this is only one part. The "refined steel" – the hard aspect of taiji - is the other part.

Regarding 'dealing with the mind vs dealing with the body' – actually these two methods are very close to each other, since the opponent's body, his movements reflect his mind.

Take care,

Yuri

Bamboo leaf,
Well...
What you are describing sounds similar to what I understand, but different.
The only real difference is in the amount and type of relaxation in our forms, and those kinds of thing are personal preferences of individual masters.
It sounds like your Master has you emphasizing looseness more than some of the other attributes, and that's fine.
The way I am being trained, looseness is just one attribute among many to utilize, and at the same time.
Same, same/Different, different.
A different way of looking at the same thing rather than a basic philosophical difference.
I take the Grand Masters explanation literally, in that in "song", which he likens to being "ductile" or malleable rather than completely limp, there is a certain degree of hardness as well as softness and that both should be used equally to meet the current need.
Let me see if I can create a visualisation...
When you bend a wire hanger, a "ductile" piece of metal, does it flop around like cooked spaghetti, squishy and unable to hold any structure of it's own if you stop manipulating it, or does it bend in a malleable fashion, meaning it maintains a structure if you stop applying force?
I guess it just depends on what you are training for.
Do you want to be pulled and pushed into a form of your opponents choosing with no thought to your own structure, or do you adjust your form to the force being applied, yet still maintain your own structural integrity?
Or, more simply, do you give yourself up entirely, including your physical structure and root, to your opponents force by making yourself empty and allowing your opponent to choose, or do you use your structure and rooting to read his application of force, then use malleability and technique, within your structure, to lead that force into an empty space in the direction of your choosing?

Or, more simply still, are we comparing the exact same things, but using different definitions of the same thing and just confusing ourselves and each other?
Because it doesn't sound like you simply let your entire structure collapse when you face an opponent.
Do you?
From what you say, you maintain rooting and form structure, and use the looseness of your waist to turn incoming force to an empty space.
If this is so, then we are arguing the exact same point, in a slightly different way.
I believe this is so and we are going in cirles until we find a common definition.

I try and stay away of looking at things as sub styles ect. A chen stylist might feel that the yang style is just another sub style of the chen instead of a different expression. As many try to point out online for some resaon.

With in the yang style history we can also see wide variations in what family members taught at different times according to history. Taiji, is taiji, until you reach an understanding of this it will be always someone else¡¯s style that you practice instead of your own.

(this is only one part. The "refined steel" ?the hard aspect of taiji - is the other part.)

I feel that many make this mistake in thinking of the hard aspect, the refined steel to me means mind. Not a physical expression. Great strength arrives, from great softness means that one does not use strength anymore in the direct sense, just as a bull fighter does not try to be stronger then the bull, only a stronger in mind.

I have no thought of maintaining my own structure, other then not moving my feet when pushing. Yes it kind of looks like a rag doll being mulled by a dog.

(Or, more simply, do you give yourself up entirely, including your physical structure and root, to your opponents force by making yourself empty and allowing your opponent to choose)

this would be a good description, the opponent can not feel my root. Think of trying to push a string being held by a balloon.

(or do you use your structure and rooting to read his application of force, then use malleability and technique, within your structure, to lead that force into an empty space in the direction of your choosing?)

you lead the mind, follow the force. Force can only be applied to something that resist. Something that either can not change or has an intention of maintaining a structure. This is why balance is a better word. Balance is a center point in which there is no hard or soft. As soon as something is out of balance the idea of force comes into play.

Sorry to all for being off topic, the main point that I was trying to make was the constant search for more, deeper levels of sung. In my small experience whoever can be the most mindfully aware coupled with extreme sung has the advantage.

Yes perhaps we are speaking of he same thing.

david

quote:

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Originally posted by bamboo leaf:
With in the yang style history we can also see wide variations in what family members taught at different times according to history. Taiji, is taiji, until you reach an understanding of this it will be always someone else¡¯s style that you practice instead of your own.

I feel that many make this mistake in thinking of the hard aspect, the refined steel to me means mind. Not a physical expression.

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I can't completely disagree or completely agree with you, but I really enjoyed this friendly exchanging of thoughts. And you are right - taiji is just taiji – multiform but beautiful in all its manifestations.

quote:

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Originally posted by Bamenwubu:
Anderzander,
No, floating isn't one of my issues.

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Hiya

I meant perhaps you were interpreting Bamboo Leaf as floating (being too loose) - rather than the lightness that I interpret him to mean.

Some sources suggest that with extensive training, the stretch reflex of certain muscles can be controlled so that there is little or no reflex contraction in response to a sudden stretch. While this type of control provides the opportunity for the greatest gains in flexibility, it also provides the greatest risk of injury if used improperly. Only consummate professional athletes and dancers at the top of their sport (or art) are believed to actually possess this level of muscular control. “

(quoting from ‘www.ifafitness.com’)

I think that the key issue here is developing the ability to train in a way that habituates (reducing the signaling of) the muscles in this fashion. “Sōng” involves a proactive, conscious control of this process. Once this process is discovered for one group of muscles it can be extrapolated to others. Because it involves conscious, focused control it feels like you are lengthening the individual muscles. This is radically different from going limp.
Going limp would involve one set of nerve pathways that go to the muscle and “sōng” would involve a set of nerve pathways that go to the muscle spindle.
Does this make sense physiologically? Any researchers out there who have access to a biomechanics lab? Seems like a simple experiment to set up and would not take much funding. Maybe someone has already done this?

Thank you for a fascinating post. I reached the conclusion sometime back that “song” in taijiquan is akin to an optimal state of muscle tonus, and tonus implies a minimal threshold of muscle contraction. Although we often hear well-intentioned advice to relax “completely,” I think that is in fact a physiological impossibility for living humans. I like to remind people that if you were “completely relaxed” you wouldn’t be able to remain standing in an upright posture; you would simply collapse into a heap. Although I enjoy studying proprioception and other such body concepts, I lack more than a layperson’s knowledge of these things. However, I recall that over thirty years ago my first sifu, Gate Chan, told us that human bodies are never “completely relaxed,” even when asleep. The human body is constantly making micro-adjustments as it seeks equilibrium. One of the things I learned from practicing standing postures is that the body is never completely still. I suppose this is one of the things that makes standing practice valuable; you become acutely aware of the “movement in the stillness”—the tiny muscle adjustments that keep the body in upright equilibrium.

Take care,
Louis

I like the idea that relaxation is being in balance with your enviroment - tension is more muscular effort than required - collapse too little.

also

http://beta.yangfamilytaichi.com/rep/index.htm

“……’song’ in taijiquan is akin to an optimal state of muscle tonus, and tonus implies a minimal threshold of muscle contraction.”

I suggest that we think of “sōng” as not being a ‘minimal’, but a ‘maximal’. I say this because in Taiji I do not feel that some mechanism is ‘turned off’, but precisely the opposite, that some mechanism is ‘turned on’; and it is turned on full blast. A maximal of what then?

Well, if there –is- a connection between “sōng” and this physiological description of muscles then we could say that “sōng” is the maximal implemention of control over both the spindle fibers (Intrafusal fibers) and coordination with the ‘regular’ (Extrafusil fibers) muscle fibers. This control and coordination is expressed as an ability to very finely balance muscle length to match and overcome external pressure.

With control of only ‘regular’ (extrafusil) muscle fibers, relaxation is a process of ‘turning off’ the signal. This is a process of alternation between merely contraction and and no contraction. It is also uni-directional; either in the direction of contraction or stopping. With control of the spindle fibers this process of ‘flex and no flex’ rides over, or is superimposed on top of, the state of forced lengthening. This means that when the ‘regular’ (extrafusil) muscle fibers are turned off the muscle can not only return to its ‘normal’ resting length, but can also –actively- go beyond this length. This could explain the state of bi-directionality that masters are able to demonstrate; a strong push on the arm suddenly removed does not result in the arm springing away from the body uncontrollably. Unlike a limp noodle, there is always flow in both directions.

Here is a citation from another source that relates to this type of muscle control:

“We have two systems by which our muscles are controlled by motor nerves (i.e. the nerves that go to the muscle from the brain). The first, and until recently thought to be the only, system works, as already described, by making muscle fibers contract and shorten. Fifty-five percent of the motor nerves look after this activity. The second system, which uses the remaining 45% of the motor nerves, works on quite a different basis. The nerves from this system do not go directly to actual muscle . . . but to a complex structure, called a muscle spindle, lying within the belly of the anatomical muscles. Many thousands of these lie lengthways in the muscles. They are about 8 mm long, bulging in the middle, and tapered at the ends. They are concerned with the lengthening of muscle, and not with its contraction.

. . . The spindle is a much more sensitive adjuster of muscle than is the overlying anatomical muscle itself. Its register of length works in parallel with the overlying muscle, not only to damp down excessive oscillations during activity but also to induce a lengthening of contracted muscle after activity. . . .

. . .the lengthening of anatomical muscles can be brought about not simply by stopping off the activity which originaly made that muscle contract, but by learning voluntarily to lengthen muscles until they achieve a better resting length.
Apparently the muscle spindle plays a very large part in this production of length in contracted muscle. It should be mentioned that spindles are connnected not only with the cerebral cortex (through which we control our actions) but with the reticular formation (the nerve network in our brain that is responsible for our conscious awareness of the world about us and our ability to think about and react to it.)
We can consciously learn to lengthen tense muscles not just by stopping the action that made them contract but as a definite act of will by which we can release and relengthen contracted muscle.” (pp. 84-86)

Barlow, Wilfred. 1990. The Alexander Technique: How to use your body without stress. Rochester, Vermont: Healing Arts Press.

Link to an article listing some commonalities shared between Taiji and Alexander Technique.

www.ati-net.com/taichi.htm

I think I understand what you’re saying, and I find this kind of investigation very stimulating. Just to clarify my meaning about a minimal threshold—I think it is important that the taijiquan concept of song be understood in light of muscle tonus. That is, normal muscle tone requires a minimal, involuntary, state of contraction. I’m just trying to counter the notion that song means “complete relaxation,” which is physiologically untenable. A lack of this minimal level of contraction would indicate a pathological condition: atonia. Ironically, the psychiatric pathology known as catatonia (i.e. against tonus), has as one of its symptoms “muscle rigidity.”

As you suggest, as one lengthens the muscles in extending and opening out into taijiquan forms, the level of muscular contraction cannot simply remain at the minimal threshold of contraction, but must meet an ideal state of balance for that particular form.

Re: I suggest that we think of “sông” as not being a ‘minimal’, but a ‘maximal’. I say this because in Taiji I do not feel that some mechanism is ‘turned off’, but precisely the opposite, that some mechanism is ‘turned on’; and it is turned on full blast.”

I wonder about this. You may be right, but I wonder how this reconciles with the way traditional taiji concepts are usually expressed. That is, many of the postural requirements are expressed as negative admonitions. For example, “xu ling ding jin” implies an “emptying” of force, intention, tension, or what have you, from the neck muscles. The prescription to “fangsong,” to “set loose,” implies a release of control, rather than a full blast implementation of control. To “han xiong” implies not throwing out the chest—a negative prescription as opposed to a positive action.

This subject is made more difficult, perhaps, because we are working in several different categories of language: informal notions of “relaxation”; formal scientific-physiological explanations; and traditional taijiquan prescriptions.

Let’s keep working on this. I think this is a useful discussion!

quote:

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Originally posted by JerryKarin:
I tend to agree with Jeff in viewing fangsong as active stretching, extending, lengthening, rather than passive letting go.

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Greetings Jerry,

I do too, sort of. I don’t know that fangsong refers specifically to the action of extending, but more to the way one does it. When you stand in the preparation posture at the beginning of the taijiquan form, you are already required to fangsong. At this point, you aren’t exactly stretching and extending as you would be in, say, Luo Xi Ao Bu, or Gao Tan Ma, yet you are still required to fangsong.

I don’t think it’s a passive thing at all. This reminds me of the perennial tendency to misinterpret WUWEI as “doing nothing.” (I know that wuwei is not explicitly a taiji concept, but it is implicit in the theory, wouldn’t you agree?) Perhaps it’s better to think of wuwei as not acting in a contrived manner, or not engaging in action that is against the natural flow.

Take care,
Louis