International Yang Family Tai Chi Chuan Association

> Louis, I like your post on Chinese history. I agree wholeheartedly with your approach.

I guess everyone missed that I took a similar approach.

> I would also like to add that although it is an almost overwhelming temptation to look for simple origins for things, reality can be messy. <

And how did my post differ?

> Simplicity may beget complexity, but complexity may also beget simplicity. It is quite possible that Taijiquan has had and continues to have many origins and no real date of origin. Many things that appear to evolve in linear progression do not in fact do so. DNA sequences do not in fact evolve linearly, nor do languages. I would be quite surprised if Taijiquan were to be different. <

I guess my use of the term "roots" went unnoticed.

I am discouraged by the responses to my post. That I approached the subject with due caution seems to be beyond my ability to communicate.

> I, personally, do not care for definitions of Taijiquan that describe it as an art based on knowledge or manipulation of Qi or Qi meridians.

Is this the stance of the Yang Zhen Duo and Yang Jun? Or do they have knowledge of meridians? If they do would you accept it?

I'm really curious how gathering the Chi in the dan tien and expressing it doesn't include knowledge or manipulation of Chi. Or I am misunderstanding you?

> In my opinion, the Yangs? Taijiquan is not directly derivative of Chinese medical theories or Qigong, any more than it is directly derivative of Western medicine or physiology. In my opinion, one can be a Qigong master, traditional Chinese doctor, or a physiotherapist and be largely ignorant of the principles of the Yangs? <

You should know that in my lineage it is traditional for a Tai Chi Master to be an acupuncturist.

David J

I apologize if my post gave the impression that I was specifically criticizing something in your post. That was not my intent. Actually, I was responding in a general way to what I considered some thought-provoking features in both yours and dorshugla’s posts. I could in fact take issue with some specifics in your presentation, and that would be a very different post than the one I wrote. In fact, what I wrote was some off-the-cuff desiderata that I thought took some of your thoughts as a jumping off point. In short, I responded to your invitation to think about the issues that you brought up. My post was more in the way of disclosing the way I think about those issues than an appraisal of your views.

You wrote, > David, putting Fu Hsi at the top of the 'lineage' is like talking about the history of computer science and saying it begins with Prometheus because he brought us fire... <

Your point is well taken...however, since I didn't place Fu Hsi in the "lineage" I don't see the point in relation to what I said.

If you mean to say that a "theraputic dance" couldn't possibly be a precursor to Tai Chi Chuan then I disagree.

I presented that whole thing as a possibility. It is a hypothesis, and idea of places to look for some of TCC roots.

As far fetched as the whole thing may seem, one part of what I said might lead someone to look for something resembling Tai Chi Chuan in the context of a religious dance in India prior to say, 1600. I have found such a thing.

Regards,

David J

I have no particular political row to hoe, I just think that Tai Chi Chuan grew over a longer period of time, and perhaps a larger area, than is generally accepted.

If your post wasn't specifically criticizing something in my post then there's no problem, and no need for an apology. It did seem to me that you were contrasting your approach to mine.

I appreciate your using some of my thoughts as a jumping off point.

Regards,

David J

You mentioned the trigrams of the I-Ching in your post above...

I am attempting to correllate the I-Ching and Taijiquan and so would like to ask a few questions.

Do you find the I-Ching to be assistful in developping Taijiquan skills directly?

On a theoretical level I understand that both are based on the trigrams...The I Ching using duos of combined trigrams, Taijiquan using them independantly, also as descriptions of movement. They are interesting to compare. Insights can be drawn...

Do you believe ALL patterns of movement energy are limited to the combinations of sixty four hexagrams presented?

How can we compare the single trigrams of the Bagua in Taijiquan with the doubled trigrams of the I-Ching?

Also, thanks for describing the requirements for Masters of Tung? style Taijiquan.
This is very encouraging to me considering my overall interest in those aspects. Very motivating indeed

Thank-you,
Best regards,
Psalchemist.

Audi wrote: “I, personally, do not care for definitions of Taijiquan that describe it as an art based on knowledge or manipulation of Qi or Qi meridians.”

David responded: “I'm really curious how gathering the Chi in the dan tien and expressing it doesn't include knowledge or manipulation of Chi.” And, “You should know that in my lineage it is traditional for a Tai Chi Master to be an acupuncturist.”

I’m somewhere in between on these issues. I think that the role of meridian theory can be overblown with regard to taijiquan. (And, by the way, I have similar reservations about how seriously to take Yijing correlations in the art.) If learning about these traditions will enhance one’s appreciation for the art and its cultural context, that’s a good thing. When it takes on the aura of proprietary esoteric knowledge, I think it just tends to make the art incomprehensible and overly mystified.

Still, I think that there is an experiential aspect of qi that can effectively transform the way one approaches taijiquan, and culturally may signal a viable alternative to the way modern Westerners think about how their body/minds behave. As David indicates, meridian theory and the notion of qi circulation are evidenced in the taiji classics. Yang Chengfu’s Ten Essentials make reference to these ideas.

Where I may begin to part company with David’s position is over precisely what “manipulation” may mean. I think a case can be made that some of the taijiquan classics advise against “manipulation” of qi. Rather, the message seems to be that if one performs the postures correctly, qi will take care of itself. There are numerous other traditional Chinese practice regimens that do in fact prescribe focus upon and manipulation of qi through various movement and breathing techniques, but in my opinion taijiquan is qualitatively different in its approach.

By the way, in the seventies I studied with Master Gate Chan, who was a Chinese medicine practitioner as well as a martial artist. He expected us to understand the basic premises of meridian theory, and trained us in point pressure and moxibustion therapies. I still have the mimeographed pages he prepared for us, with the typed names, locations, and diagnostics of the acupuncture points and meridians, and his handwritten characters of the names. (Remember typewriters and mimeograph machines?) This course of study, I think, traditionally has to do with being a well-rounded artist, and with having the capacity to heal as well as do harm. I question, though, how profitable it is to pursue things like visualization of meridians in form practice, or to what degree that reflects traditional taijiquan theory.

Ultimately, the differences of opinion we’re seeing over these issues probably point to larger issues of cultural dissonance and the murky interface of tradition and modernity. So the bottom line is probably that keeping an open mind is the best policy.

A bit of clarification.

I debated using the word "manipulation" because of its oft-used context implying artificiality. I thought Audi meant deliberately doing something that is known to move chi around, so I decided to stick with his wording. Since TCC itself fits that definition...

I know that the form, done correctly, will generate and circulate chi. In addition, it works the other way around, using chi correctly can generate better form.

If various gongs can help me be more sensitive to chi, why should I turn my back on more knowledge, especially when it is useful to me?

I hope this is clearer.

Regards,

I just came back in time for some interesting talk.

As you are all aware, I do my thinking with my body when it comes to these issues, so...

I think the advice of not concentrating on the "chi", but letting it take care of itself is good advice. I think that this thought comes from seeing that those with an impressionable mind, or because of desire, can create a feeling that is not "real". I am not saying this of anyone here, but this type of problem exists with many people. If I describe the "feeling of chi" to someone, if they have a strong mind they can soon create that feeling for themselves. This will interfere. For some others, "chi" can become a distraction/obsession.

I cannot really comment on "manipulation" of chi in taiji. I find it really is not neccesary for me. I suppose I could, but it seems to take care of itself. This is not to say that you cannot, or should not. If I know what the opponent is up to---and can respond appropriately, do I need to "add on" with more chi, or more li?

Does not my structure, and my "loosened" musculature allow for the "sinking of chi"? I do not want to use the mind for anything but recognition of the opponents movements.

Now, if I was doing certain qigongs I might be very involved in "manipulation". I have since gone to the type where it happens on it's own. I prefer it that way. I suppose it is a matter of "taste" and what one is looking for. I like simple and direct. The less I have to rely on "thinking" the less chance I have to screw it up. But that is just me.

David,

What works for you is what you should do. I am not sure that concentrating on chi will make my set better. As you can tell from above, I go from the other direction. It has been years since I tried doing it the other way around. I'll have to try it just to see.

my best

I think, that perhaps, when we discuss matters such as 'loci circles' and 'yi on qi' we are experiencing 'different level' misunderstandings....

I now consider both these 'methods' as simple transitions for experience, as temporary tools to develop aspects in Taijiquan which are very important at a certain point but which will be abandoned later in a higher level.

Embrace then renounce.

Foundation work.

I believe one should at least have an idea of what is actually occurring within one's body throughout the movement, hence my interest in qi and meridians. However, I am not considering this to be a permanent aspect to be focussed on through all levels.

I am now considering both as stepping stones towards improving the 'final results'...

A means to an end.

Part of the process.

The health and healing aspects encompassed within should, in reality be more USEFUL to me than the martial aspects, if I consider how often I will actually engage in 'self-defense' in my lifetime as opposed to how often I will need to repair the damage I've inflicted on my own body myself.

Harm and Heal do indeed seem to walk hand in hand...Taijiquan's connection with health and longevity, as well as martial application for self defense, leads me to this interest.

I must be physically healthy and well for my body to be efficient and effective in the martial application.

Thank-you,
Best regards,
Psalchemist.

Just a few non-expert comments and speculations on the concept of placebos ('sugar' pills)...

Also, how the mind can control the body and it's 'functions' (whether we are aware of the functionning or not...consciously or subconsciously).

I believe that 'awareness' itself of the 'functionning' may bring helpful insight into it's actual purpose.

(If we had never dissected the body, we would not have the knowledge that we actually have a heart, what it looks like, how it works, etc...etc...etc. Some would be aware of a mysterious pounding feeling within the chest, sometimes, elusive and others would say..."That's crazy!"-I've never felt that!
Also, we would certainly not be performing 'open heart' surgery nor would we be 'transplanting' hearts as we do almost casually today.)

( The earth WAS flat before it was round )

(Qi, on the other hand, or meridians...I'm not sure if they can be seen and dissected or not...which makes the issue much more difficult than the one of the heart. We must then rely on sensation and results from experimentations...which may always be argued over.

Can anyone say whether or not channels and vessels possess actual corporal qualities...can we see them? etc...
I know that some of the points are quite visible as "indentations" on the surface of the body...but not mush more than that.

1)A placebo which 'cures' a non-existant disease is one matter. The mind created a disturbance, and therefore can 'cure' it...purely psychological.

while,

2)A placebo which cures a real disease is far SUPERIOR to any external medications which could be employed by a doctor. The mind can actually restore its naturally healthy state, without exterior assistance.

In either cases the 'problem'/problem is resolved through the minds inherent control over the body.

Placebos can be very important and effective tools depending on the 'strength of the individuals mind'.

Some will only imagine the channels and the qi, while others will actually feel them and perhaps develop a greater sense of what is occurring within the body.

3)For some others placebo's are uneffective in any manner...Medication is required. The mind cannot cure the body from lack of will?, strength?, lack of belief that it can be done?(a certain type of interference).

4)Some others still may not even respond well to proven medications which work for everyone...Strong will to be ill?

It is all in one's mind...one's attitudes and aptitudes.

The 'spirit' of the 'commander'.

It is difficult to say what will work for whom...we are all differently inclined.

Thank-you,
Best regards,
Psalchemist.

[This message has been edited by psalchemist (edited 11-19-2003).]

[This message has been edited by psalchemist (edited 11-19-2003).]

Some people wish to focus on the martial and self defense aspects.

Others wish to acheive and maintain health, well-being, and longevity.

Yet others, dare I say most, wish to gain a bit of both.

Taijiquan is vast in it's scope and levels of understanding.

It is certainly a fascinating and useful study for anyone, regardless of particular or individual purpose.

Movement arts, meditation arts, martial art, medical art, mental development art, etc....
MARVELLOUS ART!

Best regards,
Psalchemist.

Just wondering if you are comparing or associating your placebo effect with my focusing on the false---what one thinks is chi flow but is not? Am I reading this correctly? These are very different. The substitution of the false for the real can often keep one from really being aware of the flow in the body. As for meridians...can't say. And I am not talking about TCM, only the taiji aspects.

"Imagination" is a very useful tool in various types of meditation. It helps break down certain barriers within that system. In other systems "imagination" is a hinderance. The "flavor" that I just happen to like is--no substitutes.

I have nothing against observation of the the flow in the body. I am just not big on "playing" with it that much. And I do not tell anyone to do, or not to do anything. I am just relating my taiji experience. That is all I can do.

it's all only opinion.....

<Records exist indicating that as far back as the eighth century a martial art similar to Tai Chi was practised in China. It was developed by Hu Xuan Ming who was from An Huei province and lived on Tse Yang Mountain. His system was called " Three Generations and Seven"; it was an internal style with many similar techniques and ideas to Tai Chi.

<Around this time another Tai Chi like system called "Hsien Tien Chuan" was created by Li Tao Tze, but little is known about its form and content.

<In the tenth century, Liang Kon Yu created the "Nine little heavens" system which is very similar to Tai Chi.

<These are a few of the documented examples which show us that styles similar to Tai Chi have been around for over a thousand years

Quotations drawn from the book "Principles of Tai Chi" by Paul Brecher

I am curious as to a name translation for "Hsien Tien Chuan", is anyone familiar with this phrase?

Thank-you,
Best regards,
Psalchemist.

*Tai Chi heals the body by encouraging Chi(life force) to flow through the acupuncture meridians. The acupuncture meridians run through the entire body, connecting every part.

*They are different from the nerves blood and lymphatic vessels, but they influence these and other body systems because they run through them all.

*In a 1991 report by The World Health Organization (WHO), over 400 acupoints and 20 meridians(12,8) are discussed.

*In the same year, western scientists verified the existance of the meridians by using a -Superconducting Quantum Interference Device(SQuID)- to map the lines of the force feilds of electromagnetic energy generated by the human body. They were found to correspond exactly with the acupuncture meridians documented by the Chinese over two and a half thousand years ago.

*Each TaiChi move slightly flexes a tendon, which encourages Chi to flow along the associated acupuncture meridian. The organs through which that meridian passes are energized and strengthened.

*Muscles are relaxed during Tai Chi, so the flow of blood and Chi is not restricted. Where Chi goes, blood follows, so by increasing the Chi flow you boost the circulation of blood.
[I note the possibility of confounding intense blood flow which accompanies the qi, for qi itself]

Just some points to ponder...

I have heard there are three points entitled as such...

1)The lower-below navel
2)The middle-solar plexus
3)The upper-between the eyebrows

Concentrating on the lower Tantien helps to achieve and maintain a low centre of gravity, mental balance, and stability.

I am unaware of the applications of the other two points and was hoping someone could please explain the purposes of these middle and upper Tan Tien points.

Thank-you,
Best regards,
Psalchemist.

Also from "Principles of Tai Chi", by Paul Brecher...

<If while practising solo forms, you imagine their self defense applications, more energy is released because the body thinks it has more work to do. This increases energy circulation and reinforces the body's resistance. If when training the aim is to defeat your opponent, your body will apply this intention on all levels; it will also defeat harmful viruses and bacteria.>

Comments?

I'd like to post an update of my qigong practice here. It has been an exciting time for me, not without some frustrations though, in trying to understand what is going on. My focus here is on how I understand qi sensation up till now. Since this is quite new to me, what I say is solely from what I've experienced, right or wrong. But what I'm writing here is also supported from what I've learnt from various sources. And since there is also an ongoing discussion about the relevance of sensing qi flow in Tai Chi, I thought what I'll write here may be of some interest.

This is what I believe to be the stages of development in qi sensation (specific to my practice which is qigong meditation). In my practice, the focus is mainly to clear the governing and conception meridians that is the basis of microcosmic orbit. Although it is a sitting meditation, there are movements involved – mainly a rhythmic to and fro rocking motion of the head (and body). The stages are:

Stage 0 - mild guiding force (mild movement)
Stage 1 – guiding force and hot, electric current flow through meridians (strong movement)
Stage 2 - strong guiding force with sensation of current flow (mild movement)
Stage 3 - feeling of an empty and strong guiding force (mild to no movement)

Presently, I'm in stage 2. Firstly, I ask myself often - Is what I'm feeling due to my own imagination? Did I intentionally move my body? I suppose I have no real answers to that. But what I can say is that the guiding force appears real because I would not have been able to sit there for half an hour or more, moving rhythmically to and fro, without falling asleep. Another related observation (for men only) is that such a guiding force is diminished greatly when practiced after ejaculation (release of jing). For at these moments of practice, there is no urge to continue after a while because there is no qi sensation and the motion became meaningless and boring after a while. This, I believe, is the strongest reason why I believe that the guiding movement is not due to imagination. Secondly, there is a feel good factor after each practice. When it feels good, I suppose it is good.

The transition in each stage, I believe, can be explained if we treat qi as electromagnetic in nature. Our body has resistance (electrical). Qi flow in the body induces an electric current that flows along the meridians. If the meridians are blocked, the resistance to the current is high. Hence, heat is dissipated. With more practice, the meridians clear and hence, resistance is lowered. And the heat dissipated is reduced to a point where the body resistance is very small. At this point, a "clear & empty" guiding force will flow freely through the body. I am looking forward to this stage.

In working towards clarifying Qigong, Taijiquan differentiations, qi for healing in comparison with qi for purposes of generating power for internal martial arts, towards understanding the internal mechanices of both, I deliver this information for purposes of scrutiny and questionning.

I am in the beginning stages of the learning process, and so might go awry , occassionally , with the logic involved.

All comments to seek out the truth of the matter encouraged and most welcome.

Here are some "Taijiquan posture rules", coinciding with health benefits, and meridians, hence qi, involvement...

These have been drawn mostly from the book "The principles of Tai Chi" by Paul Brecher, (endorsed by Earle Montaigue, origins of some quotes said to be derived from "Awakening the Tao" by Liu I-Ming) quoted or paraphrased for summarization purposes and peppered with personal commentary and questions concerning these points.

-Feet grip(claw) ground
-Bend knees
-Spine is straight and stretched
-Tongue on the roof of mouth
-Shoulders relaxed and down
-Elbows lower than shoulders
-Armpits have a space under them
-Arms maintain circular shape
-Hands slightly flexed and concave

Do these ring correct and sound, based on your experience in Taijiquan?

Here are some brief explanations and correlations to bind these various topics together:

Claw the ground
---------------
Taijiquan orientation: Clawing the ground assists in the developping of the skill and the acheivement of 'rooting'.

For health and healing, perhaps Qigong, as well as Taijiquan, this action uses the healing powers derived from the connection of the feet with the earth, through the associated meridian.

The meridian association is through the K1 point of the kidney channel( on the bottom of the foot), which taps into the healing energy from the earth and helps create an efficient 'rooting' through the feet.
How?
"By curling the toes under, you create a slight flex in the tendons. The meridians correspond to the tendons, so the flex draws the qi down them to the toes."

Is clawing the ground standard Taijiquan practice (among practitioners in general) towards encouaging grounding?

Does anyone employ other methods in conjunction with or independantly from 'sinking' or 'clawing' to establish 'rooting'?

Bending the knees
-----------------
"Whether you practice Tai Chi in a low or high stance, always keep the knees slightly bent, as though you are about to sit down"

Taijiquan utility: This develops internal power of the legs and improves stability by lowering the centre of gravity (activated by the lower Tan Tian).

Health benefits: If your legs are strengthened, you can continue to be active into old age.

How do meridians contribute?:
"This lowered position creates a slight flex in the leg tendons, which draws Chi down the corresponding meridians ensuring a strong circulation of chi, blood and nutrients to the legs.

To my knowledge this is standard fare for Taijiquan.

I think the 'bobbing' thread is discussing the particular details presently
Does anyone have more to say about knee posture?

Spine straight and stretched
----------------------------
The text states:
"If the spine is straight and stretched while you perform the rotating, spiralling movements of Tai Chi, its flexibility is increased.

The flow of spinal fluid and function of the spinal nerves are unhindered and Chi can ascend up the centre of the spine, through the Governing vessel to the head."

Is the power for martial arts in this case generated by the overall improved efficiency of the body's functionning?

I had read somewhere that power was generated through the rotations of the waist, but cannot recall precisely where...also, perhaps it was a curved expression...

Louis, and all, have you any knowledge of this unremembered quotation I mention?
If so, is there a 'curve' visible?
You are very good at seeking, detecting, and interpreting "curves"...
Have you any comments to contribute?

As for health benefits, "Straightening the spine stops the edges of the vertebrae from damaging the discs."

Tongue on roof of mouth
-----------------------
"Put the tongue on the roof of the mouth at the front, just like when you say the letter L. Keep the tongue in this position while you practise Tai Chi forms, most Qigong, and meditation.

It allows the Chi which has risen up the Governing vessel and over the top of the head, to connect with the Conception vessel and descend down the front of the body into the belly (Tan Tian). This circulation of energy is commonly known as the "Small circulation of Qi", and with each Tai Chi move, the enrgy completes one orbit."

"If your tongue is not connected with the roof of the mouth, energy accumulates in the head instead of travelling down to the belly. It is important to never leave excess energy in the head, beacause the hard bone of the skull cannot expand to take the pressure. Trapped Chi causes headaches and excessive mental activity."

This I know to be true from experience. In personal experimentation, without proper tongue placement, I would be stricken by extreme and devastating pressure in the head...headaches of grandiose proportion...So, I believe that this is an important point to retain.

"Neither should excess Chi be left in the chest, because the ribcage cannot expand enough, and it will cause discomfort"

"Only by bringing the Chi down to the belly (Tan Tian) can you be balanced and stable.

The belly is soft and can expand to accomodate the excess Chi: this is the safest place to store Chi"

Louis, I also heard something about "storing the Chi in the curve of the spine"...is this only a temporary state in transition towards expression? Or is this yet another curved expression?

Also,
"The only times the tongue does not touch the roof are during Fa Jin explosive moves with a shout."

Is Chen style the only family to use Fa jin techniques in their forms?

The next four points are rather straight forward and well accepted ideas in Taijiquan, I believe, but comments always welcome.

The shoulders are relaxed and down
----------------------------------
"Allow your shoulders to relax and sink down, slightly forward. This stops the shoulders, neck and upper body from storing mental and physical tension, and allows chi to sink into the belly "(Tan Tian)

The elbows are lower than the shoulders
---------------------------------------
"If your elbows are below shoulder level, it is easier for the shoulders to remain relaxed and down...This helps the chi to sink from the head and chest into the belly to giva a lower centre of gravity."

The armpits have a space under them.
------------------------------------
"You should always have a space under the armpits about the size of a fist, so that energy can flow freely through the shoulder joints and down the arms."

"If the undersides of the arms are touching the torso, the shoulder joint is closed and the chi flow to the hands is reduced."

The arms maintain a circular shape
-----------------------------------
"Extending the arms in front of the body, but don't quite lock the elbows. They should not be too bent, however, because this reduces the chi flow, in the same way that bending a hosepipe stops the water from flowing. Stretch the arms forward until you feel them connected across the upper back and they form, horizontally, the shape of an archers bow, or a horseshoe...similar to hugging a tree."

Are these issues generally agreed upon by all practitioners?

The hands are slightly flexed and Concave
-----------------------------------------
Flexing the hands slightly "draws the chi down the meridians that correspond to the tendons, so you feel a fullness in the fingertips."

Chi, or heavy bloodflow to the fingertips, or both?

"The fingers should not touch each other. The hands are concave so you can hold the chi in your palm."

On the meridian front, "This poosture activates the 8th point on the Pericardium meridian, which is used to emit chi for both the martial and healing arts of Taijiquan"

I note here the use of the expression "emit chi", is used in conjunction with healing arts, it's existance makes alot of sense in this context.

The martial reason for having the fingers flexed and extended is that "they develop great strength with the increased chi flow; eventually, they become like steel daggers and can be used to stab an opponent"

A healthand healing reason for this: "Powerful hand and fingers capable of of emitting a concentrated flow of chi also increases the healing effects of an acupressure massage"

"Hold the thumb away from the other fingers"
creating a Tiger's mouth
"This activates the fourth point on the large intestine meridian (LI-4), which helps bring chi from the belly and the lungs into the hands."

Audi, I can see some correlation between Tigers Mouth and the angle I mentioned in another post, albeit a little abstract. Have you heard of this chi tendancy before?

To close,
I can see how Qi, meridians and vessels play integrated roles in Taijiquan martial, health and healing practises.

Not necessariliy something to consider while practising the form perhaps , but certainlyexcellent food for thought afterwards.

Yi is a separate issue for me presently.

But I am quite convinced that further study into the mechanics behind the internal movements will bring further enlightenment and insight to my practise of Taijiquan.

All comments, thoughts, references pertaining to said so, welcome and useful.

The elements you mentioned are true and are basic providing the "gong" has been reached.

"Gong" meaning you have the posture down along with its mechanical physical requirements such as relaxation, rounding, etc.

PART II
One should have put in at a maximum of 4-6 months training. Why? Certain Daoist/Buddhist gongs speak of 100 days practice where one sees results. Personally, 100 days of practice today is too short based on perceptions of laziness, disease conditions (lack of exercise in the general population, etc) and the "hurry" diseases.
I am sorry I cannot give a specific time frame but 2-3 hours/day for 4-6 months should do it.

In response to your question concerning my address of placebos...

My placebo commentary derives from your statement:
< I think that this thought comes from seeing that those with an impressionable mind, or because of desire, can create a feeling that is not "real"...this type of problem exists with many people. If I describe the "feeling of chi" to someone, if they have a strong mind they can soon create that feeling for themselves. This will interfere. For some others, "chi" can become a distraction/obsession.> Michael

Although I don't disagree, blatantly, with what you have said, I thought I should put forward some different views, for additional perspective.

Firstly, I believe ignorance of existance might hinder the access to the said sensations.

In otherword the opposite of what you said...

(If I tell them, they might create a feeling that does not exist-from imagination)-M
vs.
If I tell them, they might have greater access to the "real" feeling which can occur through awareness, and therefore become more aware of their body and its functionning, and possibly experience greater insight in their practice and experience).

Who can say if what another senses is "real" or not?

Heres an odd perception...If someone explains to me what a headache is, and I imagine I have a headache...and then eventually do get a headache, is it a real headache? Or is it just a figment of my imagination? Would the pain throbbing at the temples be imaginary? Or is it still caused by imbalance of hormones/chemicals etc dicharged by minds command? Therefore real.

<This type of problem exists with many people> Michael

Actually what I have heard is that only 8% of the population is highly suggestive and impressionable in that way. I don't know if that constitues many...probably closer to very few.

<This will interfere.
For some others, "chi" can become a distraction/obsession. > Michael

I guess it could become a distraction to a point, but as for obsession...I don't think witholding relevant and reasonable information in a students studies or keeping students ignorant for fear that one of them may become obsessed with the concept a highly valid one.

Most will not become obsessed with any of the concepts you should happen to put forth, but I'm really unsure of the statistics on that one.

I hope I have clarified my thoughts on placebos.

Best regards,
Psalchemist.

[This message has been edited by psalchemist (edited 11-21-2003).]

Your mention of that book brought back memories. I bought it at the Whole Earth Festival in Davis, California, probably around 1976 or so. I think I bought it for wholly aesthetic (not holy ascetic) reasons: It was being sold by an attractive young woman dressed in orange, sitting cross-legged behind a low table stacked with oranges, and with copies of the book, whose covers were also orange. I was smitten by the whole gestalt, and bought a copy just for a chance to participate.

The book is long gone, but the memory (orange) remains.

I will ask blanket questions for them to describe how practice went? or what happened when you practiced open/close (per Sun style)for 1 hour? Anything else would be prompting!

Nice little story, I'm partial to orange myself.

Greetings Keechy,

Thanks for the posting.

Firstly,

I believe all sensations described could be either:

1) sensation of heavy blood flow
2) sensation of tendons flexing, expanding, contracting
3) Qi in association with the above
4) any one or combination of the above.

About sitting Qigong practice, I've naught to add or subtract, but bid you enjoyment in your endeavors.

Also, you stated:
<Another related observation(for men only) is that such a guiding force is diminished greatly when practised after ejaculation(release of jing). For at these moments of practise, there is no urge to continue after a while because there is no qi sensation and the motion becomes meaningless and boring after a while. This, I believe, is the strongest reason why I belive that the guiding movement is not due to imagination> Keechy

I have two references here which may be helpful, or thought provoking...

From Acupuncture.com...
"The Eight Extraordinary Vessels", by Yang Jwing-Ming:

Indicated as the sixth extraordinary vessel:

The YIN HEEL VESSEL (Yinqiao Mai) :
-----------------------------------
<The yin heel vessel is connected with two cavities of the kidney channel. Therefore, one of the major sources of Qi for this vessel is the conversion of the kidney essence into Qi...It is believed in Qigong society that the other major Qi source is the essence of the external kidneys(testicles). In Marrow Washing Qigong, one of the training processes is to stimulate the testicles in order to increase the hormone production and increase the conversion of the essence into Qi. At the same time, you would learn how to lead the Qi in this vessel up to the head to nourish the brain and spirit(Shen). With this nourishment you would be able to reach enlightenment. From a health and longevity point of view, the raised spirit will be able to efficiently direct the Qi of the entire body and maintain your health. >

AND

From "The Principles of Tai Chi" by Paul Brecher:

<There are two reasons for having the sphincter muscle slightly tensed, pulled inward and upward. Firstly, it helps the Chi ascend up into the body, and secondly, some higher level complex internal Chi Kung exercises make use of having strength in and mental control of the sphincter muscle, the perineum and the sexual organs. These exercises pump the Chi and vital essence up the spine to the head.
When men have strength in and mental control over these areas, they can practise the Taoist Orgasmic Non-Ejaculatory Lovemaking Techniques which result in no Chi or essence being lost through seminal emission. Over time this conversion of Chi and essence leads to better health and greater internal power. Just prior to the loss of seminal essence, men tend to feel elated and inflated, and afterwards, they feel depressed and deflated, owing to the loss of Chi and essence. The conservation of seminal essenceis an important factor in maintaining not only a strong constitution but also emotional and mental stability. >

To close,
You said:
< As regards to Tai Chi, I believe that the foundation from which Tai Chi was invented is in making use of Qi. For it is Qi that delivers the power, among other things. Whereas Tai Chi Chi Kung focuses on healing, ...Tai Chi Chuan is more of a martial art. But both are regarded as moving meditations.

Yes, I do believe you are correct, I agree, nicely said.

Best regards,
Psalchemist.

David, let me echo some of what Louis said about your post on the origin of Taijiquan. My comments were not directly aimed at what you posted, although what you posted was a trigger for some of what I said.

Let me try to explain my approach in a different way. Again, I am not addressing any particular previous poster or poster, nor am I trying to imply that anyone else agrees or disagrees with any particular point or with my position taken as a whole. I am just trying to explain my own experience and take on things.

At this moment, I accept a very wide definition of what is commonly called “Tai Chi” and have some interest in just about every variety I have heard described, have seen, or have practiced. At the same time, I have not yet heard a definition of “Tai Chi” that on detailed examination would be accepted by all or even most of my Taiji friends. For instance, many people talk about doing whatever is accepted by the “Classics.” As I understand it, not everyone defines the same group of works as “Classics.” Also, in practice, different practitioners put vastly different emphasis on different works and often put the greatest emphasis on recent works that most would not define as belonging to the “Classics.”

Even if we take such a recently and heavily documented figure as Yang Chengfu, I think we find that his teaching has spawned a vast variety of methods that often are mutually contradictory at many levels. For example, does seating your wrist mean “flexing” it, or keeping it straight? Should your Taijiquan rely on using the Macrocosmic orbit, or not?

Some people are lumpers. Others are splitters. In approaching the social context of Taijiquan, I am a lumper. I am glad this forum has contributors from many backgrounds and would think it much the poorer if only students of Yang Zhenduo participated. In practice, I am a splitter. I believe I lost several years of development, by not understanding that all approaches to Taijiquan were not necessarily interchangeable or additive. I honestly see many friends in similar situations, trying to reconcile things that I strongly believe are not intended to be reconciled.

Others believe that the issue is really finding out what is true Taijiquan and what is not. They would argue whether flexing or straightening the wrist would represent the “true Taijiquan” or Yang Chengfu’s true and most refined teaching. I find this personally to be unhelpful and prefer to discuss such things differently.

Given my position, I find that I can profitably approach certain topics in only very limited ways. I do not mean to imply that other approaches are invalid, only that I no longer know how to go down those paths. For example, I recall a poster who posted several questions about “Old Yang Style.” To me, this term implies an entire set of arguments and contexts that I could not address properly without writing a twenty-page post.

How does one define a “style”? What exactly is “Yang” Style? What is “old” and what is “new”? Is the term “Taijiquan” always used to describe the art as a whole, or a particular practitioner’s major barehand form? As a result of all these uncertainties, I do not like such questions and reply, if at all, in only limited fashion.

As for “manipulation of Qi,” here is my understanding, which I would like to explain through a baseball analogy. As far as I know, the vast majority of professionally baseball players accept the theories and principles of modern science. I would be surprised, however, if many have extensive knowledge of the neurology, anatomy, or physiology involved in swinging a baseball bat. To some, such knowledge is probably indeed helpful, but I believe that one can learn to swing a bat without knowing much of anything of these disciplines.

Because of questions about my earlier statements, I did a quick reality check by flipping through Yang Zhenduo’s book, Yang Style Taijiquan. Although I do not think the book was intended to lay down anything approaching his full art, I do think he intended to describe the fundamentals of his style. Unlike many other books I have seen, I see nothing in it about Qi Gong practices, meditation, stretching, aerobics, yoga, or many other good and worth arts. I have no idea what Yang Zhenduo’s attitude is about many of these; however, I think I must conclude that he did not believe that any of these things were fundamental to the theories he laid out for Yang Style.

In my cursory review of the book, I found two obvious references to Qi phenomena.

First, on pages 5-6, he describes Yang Style as follows: “The movements are naturally combined with breathing which should be deep and should ‘sink to the dan tian’ (a point in the lower belly slightly below the navel). Here again it is quite different from the Chen Style which combines ‘sink deep breath to the dan tian’ with ‘breath circulation in the lower belly’.” I believe the first reference is to what is described in Chinese as “Qi chen dan tian” (“The Qi sinks to the Dantain”).

I personally find the original translation quite illustrative of the fact that what is being described is not a complex manipulation that can be performed only after prolonged or specialized training or only with experienced focus. When I have heard this technique described in person, it was done in quite prosaic, down-to-earth terms that in my opinion bore little in common with the complex charts and diagrams I have seen in some books. Although I think I could demonstrate the meaning in person, it is hard to put it into words. For me, it boils down to something like being aware of where “I” am inside my body and locating this sense in my Dantian, or at least near to where my waist “energy” manifests itself. My purpose is not to deny or affirm the content of the charts or the diagrams of others, but to make clear that the Yangs did not present their material in this fashion and implied that focusing on such levels of complexity during practice was not appropriate to their style.

If anyone has attended a Yang family seminar or class and recalls being advised to focus on Qi circulation or being taught Qi Gong exercises, I would be curious to know of this.

I also do not mean to deny the marvelous effects of “sinking Qi to the Dantian” in both a health and a martial sense. I find this to be a quite subtle and important practice that I ignore all too often. I think it also has deeper aspects that might be misunderstood by viewing it simply as “deep breathing.” The fact that the term “Dantian” is used does not, in my opinion, imply that Yang Style Taijiquan has imported into its theories all of the vast, complicated, and apparently conflicting traditions about the Dantian that may have evolved in Chinese thought over the last 2500 years.

The other reference to Qi phenomena I found in the book was a quotation of Yang Chengfu’s Ten Essentials of Taijiquan. Here he explicitly refers to meridians in his explanation of “Using the mind instead of force.” I again find the context illustrative. Here is a partial quote:

“People may ask: How can one increase his strength without exercising force? According to traditional Chinese medicine, there is in the human body a system of pathways called jingluo (or meridian) which link the viscera with different parts of the body, making the human body an integrated whole. If the jingluo is not impeded, then the vital energy will circulate in the body unobstructed. But if the jingluo is filled with stiff strength, the vital energy will not be able to circulate and consequently the body cannot move with ease. One should therefore use the mind instead of force, so that vital energy will follow in the wake of the mind or consciousness and circulate all over the body. Through persistent practice one will be able to have genuine internal force. This is what Taijiquan experts call ‘lithe in appearance, but powerful in essence.’”

First, I find that the very reference to “traditional Chinese medicine” implies that Yang Chengfu was reaching for corroboration from outside of his core art, in the same way that a golfer might refer to physiology or physics to explain a particular method. To my mind, this does not mean that such references imply a privileged access to the underlying art. In other words, I do not need to be a physicist to play golf, and good physicists do not necessarily make good golfers. Studying physics is also not necessarily a magic key to open the door to a better golf game. I would equally assert that studying traditional Chinese medicine is not a required gate to understanding the Yangs’ Taijiquan.

Secondly, the entire emphasis of the quotation is on why “stiff strength” is bad, why “vital energy” (“jingshen”) and internal force (“nei jin”) are good, and why the “mind” (“Yi”) or consciousness are all that are necessary. Nowhere is there a direct emphasis on using the mind to manipulate, circulate, stimulate, generate, or even unlock Qi. I am not sure if the word Qi even appears anywhere in the quote. In my opinion, the emphasis is on two things: not using stiff force and on using the mind. The former blocks the “vital energy” (“jingshen”), and the latter allows the “vital energy” to “follow in its way” and to “circulate.”

If one reads the quote as implying that Yang Chengfu’s Taijiquan must naturally derive from the complex body of meridian theories, I do not understand why all Chinese martial arts do not follow Taijiquan’s theories or why all acupuncturists do not practice Taijiquan to the exclusion of any other arts. As far as I know, Taijiquan and Chinese medicine do not have a privileged relationship that cannot be claimed by many other arts. Qi phenomena are used to justify a whole range of things that in my view have little bearing on Taijiquan, from causing spontaneous combustion, levitating, or rendering one’s body bullet proof. Probably all “traditional” Chinese, Korean, and Japanese martial arts reference Qi and claim to have the secrets to mobilizing it to maximum effectiveness.

Again, I am not supporting or denying any particular meridian theories, only expressing my skepticism that understanding the various theories or engaging in practices derived from them are truly fundamental to anything the Yangs are describing. Why write a whole book and make only one or two casual references to isolated aspects of this? I honestly do not think the Yangs’ approach to Taijiquan is centered on Qi and think that pursuing the ins and outs of Qi will not help one learn much of their art. I would also say the same about breath control, blood circulation, neurology, and muscular control.

One particular concern I must confess to is the practice of the microcosmic orbit. I have only a minor personal experience with this practice; however, every time I have seen it described by renowned authors, I see it coupled with strong warnings against exploring it if done without expert supervision. I have also heard of third- or fourth-hand criticisms from traditional Chinese doctors who counsel against any such conscious manipulation of one’s Qi movement. I personally know of no one who has claimed to fall ill from doing the microcosmic orbit, but I have talked to people who have attributed illness to certain other Qi Gong practices. As I understand it, standard Taijiquan is supposed to be a relatively safe way of garnering the same benefits without the attended risks in unguided practice. I wonder, therefore, why someone would want to experiment with this outside of the supervision of someone with the required expertise to provide safe guidance.

If one has a good teacher, I can see little wrong in engaging in any practice, including the microcosmic orbit. I am incompetent to judge the worth of any particular teacher’s knowledge or theories if I have not even met them. I do, however, feel compelled to distinguish between various teachings. One of the very strong currents throughout the Yangs’ teachings is that their methods rely on natural movements of the body, rather than on trained manipulation of Qi, muscles, tendons, Jin (strength), Jing (essence), or anything else, with the possible exception of the mind or spirit. As far as I understand it, they say that any necessary changes to these things can be accomplished in their style safely and naturally through practice of the form itself. If one follows a method that prescribes some other practice or practices as “necessary” or “essential” to making progress in basic gongfu, I respectfully assert that such is a significantly different approach. Whether such approaches are good, bad, better, or worse requires an entirely different discussion on entirely different lines.

Take care,
Audi

I enjoyed your post, and I think we’re much in agreement on the “manipulation of qi” issue. However, I’m compelled to point out that the translation of Yang Chengfu’s Ten Essentials in the old Morning Glory edition is problematic on a few counts. I think you have a copy of Yang Zhenduo’s newer Chinese book, which has the source text on pp. 26-27. You might also compare my translation, or Jerry’s (on this site) with the original, and you’ll notice that the Morning Glory version in some case omits wording or elaborates beyond the original. The words “According to traditional Chinese medicine,” for example, were added, probably for the benefit of Western readers unfamiliar with meridians. Also, you mentioned you weren’t sure the word “qi” appeared in the quote from Essential #6. It does, translated in the MG version as “vital energy.”

Take care,
Louis

Here are a few further thoughts on what I see as a de-emphasis on direct manipulation of or preoccupation with qi in taijiquan. I’ve already posted elsewhere my reading of the lines in the ‘Mental Elucidation’ classic that the focus should not be placed on the qi. This is not to say that qi doesn’t play an important role in taiji movement or taiji movement theory, but rather that mental preoccupation with qi as some sort of separable phenomenon may actually be counterproductive, and interfere with natural movement.

I think there may be some added perspective in Chen Weiming’s commentary upon this particular text. I’m working from memory here, but my recollection is that Chen commented on one of the lines that used the term “yun qi,” which could be translated “mobilize, circulate, or move the qi.” Chen says that this reference to “yun qi” does not imply “extraordinary” methods (ge2wai4: extraordinary, exceptional, unusual). This is merely my interpretation, but I think Chen’s remark here may have been a pointed attempt to contrast the approach of taijiquan with other practices that explicitly isolate and focus upon qi. As I’ve noted before, the term qigong did not have any real currency at the time Chen Weiming was writing. The term “yun qi,” however, has historically been used for exercises and routines that in modern terms are sometimes called “qigong.” He may have been reacting to practices he felt had a qualitatively different emphasis than taijiquan.

Again, this is my interpretation, and I may be reading something into it that’s not there. Incidentally, Barbara Davis’ new book of taijiquan classics translations will be coming out soon, and will include her translation of Chen Weiming’s commentaries. I'm really looking forward to reading it. It will be interesting to see how these passages are treated.

Thank-you everyone for all the details describing how Taijiquan does and does not apply the use of qi methodology.

So, although qi may be a part of Taijiquan, it is not the basis for it's internal power in the same manner as it would be in Qigong.

This clarifies my perception somewhat.

Assorted notes.

Healing chi and martial chi are two different things. I know of two people each sensitive to one but not the other. Someday they'll meet in the middle. I might not have seen this clearly if I hadn't seen them interact in one instance.

Elbows and knees are always bent. Note that I am not specifying how much.

The spine isn't exactly straight. Thomas Jefferson wanted to build a wall the standard two-brick thickness but he found he didn't have enough bricks, so he made the wall one brick thick, but gently curving back and forth, which gave the structure additional strength. The spine does a similar curving forward and back for additional lateral stability.

I would be careful of this to "Allow your shoulders to relax and sink down, slightly forward." I would make that "rearward." I was taught to roll the shoulders up-back-and down, and then let them drop, that is, hang. When the shoulders move forward they must return back. In some movements having your shoulders forward can give you a rotator cuff injury. In the sabre set, where the sabre is point down in front and then raised over your head, if you hear a click in your shoulder that's from having your shoulder too far forward, and a tendon passing tightly over a bone.

> The elbows are lower than the shoulders <

If this is supposed to be an overall rule, this might be a mistranslation, since we have movements like 'White Crane' 'Strike Tiger' 'Double Wind' etc, where the elbow is higher than the shoulder. There is an upper limit but that isn't it. If someone has that as a rule in their style, that's OK I guess, but a fuller range of motion of the shoulder is employed in what I do
.
There is a rule "If your hand is higher than your waist your elbow should be below the wrist."

"You should always have a space under the armpits about the size of a fist." I think this is the secret to the "hollow" chest oft mentioned.

I was taught that joints should be open in standing meditation for chi flow.

Regards,

David J

I've looked over what I've written and I'm not sure where all the objections are coming from. I guess I didn't do a good job of expressing my thoughts in regard to chi.

In simply doing Tai Chi Chuan chi is circulated, is this not a known part of it? Do you not deliberately practice Tai Chi Chuan? If so, then aren't you deliberately doing someting that circulates chi?

Audi, you wrote,
> I, personally, do not care for definitions of Taijiquan that describe it as an art based on knowledge or manipulation of Qi or Qi meridians. <

Not based on knowledge of chi? Yang Chen Fu talks of chi, does he not? This may sound strange but haven't you noticed that Tai Chi Chuan has chi in the title?

As for not becoming familiar with the meridians. That seems a little like knowing cars exist, driving daily, but not wanting to know about road maps.

In the past I have mentioned Da Liu writing about what meridians are activated by which moves, but I never put too much emphasis on it.

If you don't think that developing chi is inline with TCC that's OK with me, but I believe that stronger chi can develop over time by practicing form, and that using Chi Gung, like ZZ, to increase one's chi can benefit Tai Chi Chuan, and is fully in line with it.

Regards,

Thanks for the clarifications.

I appreciate the detailled commentary on my posting.

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Firstly, under the header "assorted notes" you wrote,
<Healing chi and martial chi are two different things> David

The differing uses of chi was the overall gist of the matter I wished to address in my post. The way I understand the issue presently is that healing chi and martial chi are actually the same things, but employed in different manner for different purpose.

Taiji employs qi in a less intentional, almost incidental fashion for martial purposes in combination with the primary structure essentials and the basic and extra hand and foot skills.

Qigong methods very deliberately and intentionally engender the growth and movement of chi throughout the body using various techniques, which include breathing, for medical and health purposes. Manipulation of qi is the focal point of it's art.

However, they do both make use of the common substance, both are conducted through the same meridian passage systems and both become manifest in their own ways.

Mind intention in practice of these are two different matters completely.

Personally, I find it only logical to be aware of most basic mechanics issues if one is to drive a car. Although perhaps unnecessary, it might be helpful to know how to tighten a battery cable, use a nylon for a fanbelt, or change a wheel, so that if one is stranded somewhere 'nowhere', one will not have to rely on a mechanic to correct the simple matter.

But, one could always just simply call AAA, right?

Hence, my interest of the underlying mechanics of Taijiquan internal movement, which do, in essence, include the use of qi.

Once again, two different arts. Intention placement in regards to Taijiquan and Qigong do certainly differ.

---------------------------------------------
You wrote of the spine:
<The spine isn't exactly straight. Thomas Jefferson wanted to build a wall the standard two brick thickness but he found he didn't have enough bricks, so he made the wall one brick thick, but gently curving back and forth, which gave the structure additional strength. The spine does a similar curving forward and back for additional lateral stability.>David

That is a very interesting fact...Thanks for bringing that to my attention.

I have a compulsion to recieve instruction on body construction!

---------------------------------------------
You wrote:
<I would be careful of this "to allow your shoulders to relax and sink down, slightly forward". I was taught to roll the shoulders up back and down and let them drop, that is, hang. When the shoulders move forward they must return back. In some movements having your shoulders forward can give you rotation cuff injury.> David

Thanks for that caution and advice, I will take heed of your note.

---------------------------------------------
<You should always have a space under your armpits about the size of a fist. I think this is the secret to the hollow chest oft mentioned.> David

Another interesting fact I'd not considered.

---------------------------------------------
To requote the quote you requoted:
<<The elbows are lower than the shoulders>>
<If this is supposed to be an overall rule, this might be a mistranslation...>David

Actually, more of a misconveyance on my part. Please allow me to re-paraphrase the source I had drawn from originally, to complete the idea you present...
The quote, in it's entirety is:
<If your elbows are below shoulder-level, it is easier for the shoulders to remain relaxed and down. If your elbow does come higher than your shoulder, as in Crane Spreads Wings, keep the shoulder relaxed and down. This helps the chi to sink from the head and chest into the belly to give a lower ceentre of gravity> "Principles of Tai Chi", Paul Brecher

I hope this is clearer now in it's totality.
---------------------------------------------
You wrote:
<If your hand is higher than your waist, your elbow should be below the wrist.> David

Interesting, I hadn't noticed this before either.

---------------------------------------------
Lastly you wrote:
<I was taught that the joints should be open in standing meditation for the chi flow.> David

Maybe I am confusing joints and meridians, but I was under the impression that if some are open then others are closed...So to be more precise, now I would inquire as to which ones should be open, which closed, how precisely, these openings should be achieved, besides the constant compulsion to know why we open these ones specifically as opposed others.

---------------------------------------------
The more I learn the more I have to question.

Thank-you,
Best regards,
Psalchemist.

> > If your elbows are below shoulder-level, it is easier for the shoulders to remain relaxed and down. If your elbow does come higher than your shoulder, as in Crane Spreads Wings, keep the shoulder relaxed and down. This helps the chi to sink from the head and chest into the belly to give a lower ceentre of gravity> "Principles of Tai Chi", Paul Brecher

> I hope this is clearer now in it's totality. <

This is clear. Very good.

> Maybe I am confusing joints and meridians, but I was under the impression that if some are open then others are closed...So to be more precise, now I would inquire as to which ones should be open, which closed, how precisely, these openings should be achieved, besides the constant compulsion to know why we open these ones specifically as opposed others. <

The joints, like your finger joints, are are not closed like a fist but open, though not all the way. The joints are not straight, nor closed. I was taught that in this instance if the knees and elbows are slightly bent they are opened properly for "staking."

In one typical posture, with your fingertips about 4 inches apart, your arms make like a basketball hoop. Is that specific enough?

Regards,